Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I guess part of it is the massive power imbalance. Israel has far more resources and technology, and are the ones launching an invasion into Palestinian territory, which obviously means that they're going to be a bit more responsible for any Palestinian corpses that show up whilst they're there.
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
Israel rejects a ceasefire proposal made by John Kerry.
I assume that article will update in time, as it's pretty small.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
^^The other issue is that the UN is set up according to realpolitik and all-inclusiveness, and that includes countries with ulterior/bad motives.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to insulate petty political grievances and disputes from efforts to maintain peace and enshrine human rights when you have the partisan political entities of the world themselves take up the task. The UN is fucked.
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
Party Crasher
UN shelter school hit in Gaza. Killing 13-15.
edited 25th Jul '14 12:00:09 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
@Silas - I just mean to say there are those sorts of people in any former British colony. Doesn't mean the nations as a whole are like that.
Old news, already posted on the thread.
what were the terms of this "humanitarian" ceasefire ?
did it allow for Israeli troops to stay in Gaza ? or were they supposed to pull back ? were they allowed to continue blowing up the tunnels already discovered ?
from the sound of it, the decision in the cabinet was unanimous - guess it was a very bad offer.
Netanyahu seems to have agreed to a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire, which sounds more reasonable.
Edit: seriously, F@#k Ynet. just read the story, its on the front page.
don't know why the direct link doesn't work.
edited 25th Jul '14 12:29:06 PM by bladeofdarkness
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... I don't think I need to read the past 10+ pages to know that the conflict has only gotten worse.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Worse... or better ?.
but yeah, it has gotten worse.
edited 25th Jul '14 12:39:06 PM by bladeofdarkness
Part of the Problem
An Info-graphic from the IDF explaining the Duality between HAMAS Operations and Israeli Operations. http://t.co/by2QzFl09d
Also, a good day (Relative) for Israel yesterday. Only 47 Rockets struck Israeli soil compared to the ~90 Per day for the past week.
Edit: Fixed Link.
edited 25th Jul '14 1:14:35 PM by CassiusBenard
Mudkip's final evolution is in fact NOT Mudkipperino.
United Earth
edited 25th Jul '14 1:19:27 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
not really.
we already know the reason is Hamas is reducing the number of rockets launched because they want to have enough for another month or so.
so lets hope this war keeps going for another two.
Edit: Israel agrees to a 12 hour ceasefire starting 7:00 AM tomorrow.
http://www.ynetnews.com - front page article.
edited 25th Jul '14 1:26:44 PM by bladeofdarkness
A procrastination in of itself
Anyone want to place bets on how long into that ceasefire Hamas will start shooting again?
edited 25th Jul '14 2:02:04 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
(Avatar by Coffee)
I bet 10 Shekels for two hours.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
I bet longer.
this ceasefire is a gift for Hamas, and they'll want to make the most of that time to regroup, rearm, and rest up.
edited 25th Jul '14 1:45:55 PM by bladeofdarkness
Part of the Problem
I'm going to guess it will last exactly long enough for an average man to walk to Israel from Gaza via tunnel.
Mudkip's final evolution is in fact NOT Mudkipperino.
(Avatar by Coffee)
In that case, half an hour to a few hours, depending on where the ends are.
EDIT: Illustration.
◊
edited 25th Jul '14 1:53:23 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
using the tunnels at this point would be completely idiotic.
If they did happen to have a Tunnel the IDF hasn't found yet, surely it would be preferable to conserve it for a later date. the border area around Gaza has never been on higher alert for exactly this kinda threat, so you'll just get slaughtered, and once a Tunnel's been used, its basically useless.
edited 25th Jul '14 1:58:08 PM by bladeofdarkness
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
Yeah, at this point it's just painting a target on yourself to use the tunnels. Anyone thinking further ahead than 5 minutes is going to know not to do that.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
United Earth
srael-Gaza conflict: Netanyahu compares Hamas rocket attacks to the Blitz. Netanyahoo is a tad dramatic: "This use of human shields is extraordinarily cynical, it is grotesque, it's inhuman."
How well did being "idealistic" work out for the Palestinians, when they tried it?
Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamas’s human shields: I think this one makes a satisfactorily strong case against the concept, and as to why the Gazaouites might feel increased hatred towards Israel rather than Hamas.
edited 25th Jul '14 3:10:26 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
I can put up arguments against the second link, but people have already said them and I don't want to sound like a scratched record.
edited 25th Jul '14 3:14:16 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
A procrastination in of itself
Since when did it count as being "idealistic" to follow the basic rules of war?
Edit: As for your second link, where does it make an argument against the concept that Hamas use human shields? All I see is the (valid) point that some people chose to stay. That doesn't make them any less human shields, Hamas place weapons stores under civilians areas, that means Hamas use civilians as human shields.
Now there's a valid point that people have nowhere to flee to, but that doesn't mean Hamas aren't still using people as human shields, especially when (as the article admits) they try and convince them to not leave when teh Israelis warn them to.
edited 25th Jul '14 3:19:12 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
(Avatar by Coffee)
@Q&A: Amnesty were sensible and fair until the last sentence.
A procrastination in of itself
As for Amnesty, they're putting themselves to shame by accepting the UN Human Rights Council's action, the Human Rights Council is a full of shit to be honest, an organisation that considers Israel a bigger human rights abuser than (and I repeat) Syria, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan and Burma combined is not one I can respect, nor is it one that Amnesty should respect.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Yeah that sounds like they've already made up their minds about who's responsible for the civilian casualties.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran