Conformity

I intend for this thread to be a general discussion on the nature of conformity. Questions such as: "what is conformity?"; "can conformity be good"?; "how would you define a conformist society?"; "how widespread is conformity?" and "is it equally conformist to be nonconformist?" I hope will be brought up here.

One thing that I have noticed about conformity as it pertains to east asian societies and cultures (especially Japan) is that stereotypes of far eastern people as a bunch of soulless, weak-willed, conformist drones often clash with what I see in reality. At least for Japan, I can say that the proliferation of a large number of youth cultures and subcultures that would be seen as fairly absurd in the west, seems to indicate that youths there are not afraid to offend a few sensibilities. The huge variety of popular media there also lends credence to the theory that Japan as a society finds it acceptable to be your own person, with distinct interests and ambitions. In addition to that, it appears that Japan has a larger fanbase of extreme music compared with the west.

In fact, I believe that accusing Japan of being a conformist society is in itself a conformist thing to do. So, for the sake of argument I am going to be nonconformist here - I think that Japan might in fact be a less conformist society than many nations in the west.

edited 12th Aug '13 11:43:28 AM by HeinousHeathenHedonist

"Your impertinence invites my severest displeasure"

As far as Japan goes, the current compromise seems to be "be your own person on your own time, but out in public you're still expected to toe the line." You don't get a lot of the walking weirdness that you see in other countries, and i think that's partly why they have so many subcultures, because they won't let that stuff float up into culture (although it does, slowly).

A little conformity is a good thing, as conformity breeds peace. The problems all come from the pressures utilized to enforce conformity.

Forming opinions is hard, so I'm just going to agree with whatever and said.

edited 12th Aug '13 12:55:00 PM by TobiasDrake

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As far as I can tell, "walking weirdness" is in fact rather scarce in the western world as well and I have yet to see any conclusive proof that Japan enforces conformity more stringently than most other developed countries. Seeing a gothic lolita in public there seems to be basically equivalent to seeing a mohawked punk in the western world, in terms of infrequency.

"Your impertinence invites my severest displeasure"

First you need to break down what forms of conformity you're talking about.

In my view, conformity is nothing short of 'group behaviour' writ large and applied to a social scale. And humans are known to flip flop between grouping and lone wolfing. It all falls down to individuality and what foreseeable benefits are there when cooperating with others. Group behaviour is possible so everyone looks like they're functioning equally.

Same as usual.... Wing it.

Personally, I think some level of 'conformity' is necessary for society to survive. Certain things like 'don't be a dick' that are found in all human societies. Disagreements have arisen over the millennia what 'a dick' is, but there are some common definitions: Murderers, rapists, adulterers, bankers, etc.

Also, I think that this is a good look at the subject.

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Conformity is not bad in itself, but it is when taken too far. If people need to deny who they are in order to be able to keep their jobs and/or social status, then something went wrong somewhere.

I mean, I may not have the right info, but as far as I know, there's not a single high-end politician in the USA that got away with, say, liking comic books. Considering how many comic book geeks there are, and how many politicians, that kind of strikes me as odd.

It's definitely a sliding scale.

Not enough

Too much◊

The term 'conformity', to me, naturally brings up ideas of game theory, like the prisoner's dilemma and so on. This sense of the word has less to do with superficial things like fashion and culture, and more to do with philosophy and economics- but it is certainly relevant to interpersonal conduct in general.

In terms of game theory and conformation vs defection, I kinda subscribe to the idea of superrationality or at least something similar (in principle, if not in practice- humans are quite capable of being stupidly selfish).

As far as this relates to interpersonal conduct, it basically amounts to 'don't be a jerk'. Being a jerk, in other words, is the defection option in the game. I think one of the problems we see in many modern societies is that people often look up to jerks, and seek to become effective jerks. Of course, a society entirely made of jerks tends to be a pretty shitty place to live, but it seems like those who try to be jerks do so in the hopes that society will continue to provide a steady supply of conformers to take advantage of.

That's hardly just the 'current compromise'. From what I've heard, japanese culture for a very long time has held (and in many ways, even revolved around) the concept that each person is two people, or at least has two sides to themselves, essentially 'you as you really are' and 'you as you present yourself to others' (but saying that the former is the 'real you' would be wrong; both are considered equally real). The idea being that it's okay to be totally weird at heart, but that you absolutely must conduct yourself in a respectful, serious, appropriate manner when around other people, hiding/suppressing any aspects of your 'inner' self that would interfere with doing so.

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One of the facets of conformity that I don't think gets touched on enough is real fundamental conformity of who you are and how you act all the time, and conforming in certain situations.

People talk a lot about the military being brainwashing and things of that nature. But myself and every troop I know is our own person, we have the way we act when we're conducting official business, the way we act when we're on duty in a room full of people we know really well, and then the way we act in regular clothes at a barbecue outside of work.

One thing my civilian friends who've met me on duty before have said is that I'm a drastically different person on the clock. This is true, after a fact. When I'm on duty and interacting with the public, I don't really have much of a sense of humor, I'm mostly all business. When I'm around most of my squadron, I act a lot more macho and stern. When I'm with my friends who I've worked with for years or I'm at home or with civilian friends, I'm goofy, empathetic, and sensitive. I learned how to conform to get the best results in certain environments where just being myself would yield less than ideal results, but it doesn't mean I really changed that much. It just means I'm different in the environment I'm conforming to. Some folks are sucked into an environment so long that certain things fundamentally change as a result of that conformity. Case in point is a friend of mine who was a sensitive and nice kid who the military crushed into something of a clockwork soldier who always has a stick up his ass. This bled over into his civilian life in a big way, and he became a bit of a shut-in. Only now after several years has he started to learn to turn the switch on and off, and he's slowly becoming that goofy kid again when he's off the clock.

Mitt Romney said he liked Battlefield Earth though, which is basically as pulpy, cliché-ridden and schmaltzy as you get. In essence, the mainstream impression of comic books.

edited 13th Aug '13 7:52:45 AM by HeinousHeathenHedonist

"Your impertinence invites my severest displeasure"

Aye, "Honne" and "Tatamae." Japanese culture has a lot of dichotomies similar to that. How quickly i forget my anthropology course.

Carry on...

Yeah, I knew there were words for the concepts, but I didn't remember what they were.

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Any large organisation or institution 'brainwashes' it's members to one degree or the other. From the army to the to the priesthood. You're might still be the individual but you indoctrinated to thinking and doing thinks in a certain way.

Apart from a few superficial subcultures Japan strikes me as conformist society. Sure they are more bands and art movements out there. But there is still a strict social code that one would face out casting if they were to break.

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Japan's social code on conformity seems to be this: When you're working or at school, you have to fit the mold. On your own time, you can be anyone you want.

Smile for me!

Interesting thread. Makes me think about Mooks, especially faceless ones like Gas Mask Mooks, whose conformity allows the audience to thrill to their being chopped up by the hero without messy empathy getting in the way.

...what about the current U.S. president?

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Pix or it didn't happen!

Seriously, though, I've heard about Obama being less of a technophobe, but I haven't heard about him actually liking that kind of stuff.

Here's a link. He doesn't make a big deal of it which is probably why you didn't hear about it.

The fact Obama brought his love of comics up and the opposition didn't try to use it against him (much) points to the increasing influence comic books and their fans have over general American society. Though an even better indicator of that is all those super hero movies making megabucks.

Back on topic, it means comics are now far less of a subculture and are more mainstream, which in turn means reading them doesn't necessarily make you a nonconformist.

edited 26th Aug '13 2:42:40 AM by betaalpha

Huh. I stand corrected.

Comic books have been around since what the 30s? They're seen as kid stuff for sure but they're accepted part of popluar culture.

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I assume Obama also likes video games, if he played the copy of The Witcher 2 he was given when he visited my country.

My President is Funny Valentine.

Americans conform to anything that makes a lot of money. Comics are big business, hence...

But not big enough to stop them being taken over — and, in some cases, almost going out of business.

Keep Rolling On

With all the talk about China becoming the new superpower with its sights set firmly on world domination (I don't particularly believe that myself and I consider the assertion fairly laughable) - do you think that our society will become steadily more conformistic in the near future?

"Your impertinence invites my severest displeasure"