Characters from Inheritance Cycle vs US military

Question based off a fanfiction called When Worlds Collide. Don't know if this belongs here, or Literature, or yack fest, but it is based off a fanfic...

So, read some of the fic first to get the feel, then tell me:who would win? Eragon and the rest of Alagaesia, or the US military?

Now, I have messaged the author quite a bit, and he says that tanks and jets and the like will come in later, and that the military will be using anti-magic tech. However, he still insists that the US is in trouble because Alagaesia has dragons and magic.

So, who would win??

Relevant posts on this subject quoted from Writer's Block/World Building/other forums/books.

I agree, especially with that last part. The fact that the US military will be using anti-magic tech later in the story makes it even more of a curb stomp in favor of us. However, the author still believes dragons and magic could pose a threat to a fleet of jets and tanks.

Could the magicians make us bleed? Yes. Could they win? I don't think so. Dragons vs seeking/guided cruise missiles isn't even a contest - those dragons are toast. There are only two ways I can see where magic is superior: instant heals (which I don't remember being in the Inheritance Cycle) and foolproof stealth. Both of those are of limited utility when we can just drop a fuel-air bomb and kill everything in a two mile radius of the target, and that's without bringing nukes into the conflict at all.

Plus using magic drains you of energy and if you run out you die. A magician could put a ward up against bullets, but since every individual impact drains some energy from you, a full squad pouring it on would kill you pretty quick.

In special conditions "magic"^note Notice the quotation marks. can defeated military, like in Warhammer Forty Thousand trying to imagine a fight between a daemon force of the Chaos against a modern day military (though against Space Marines is another story). It's just tailoring it to make believable, it can be a good opportunity to use the Outside-Context Villain trope, the military fighting something apparently inexplicable, but, while I know next to nothing of the Inheritance Cycle, I guess that might not be the case.

Lol, Nasuada and Eragon (major characters) think getting Roran to lead the army is going to give them a chance.

The only thing that *might* give Inheritance a fighting chance, from my dim memory of reading it, were the "Instant Death spells" that played a large part of the strategy of the second book's big battle. That was something (in hindsight, one of the few) that I liked about that series, was that death spells were apparently rather cheap, compared to, say, Avada Kedavra which was always referenced in hushed tones and the fact that it was the villain's go-to spell was what made him so evil. They, in Eldest, had it such that unless enemy mages were putting up barriers, a few utterances from a team of mages on your side could wipe out Companies of the enemy at a go, which is similar to how modern weaponry works and would certainly not feel out of place on a modern battlefield, moreso because you couldn't see where the enemy was firing from.

Without cheap Death spells, no, they wouldn't stand a chance.

You're talking about the Twelve Words of Death, I see. However, they still wouldn't be much help when we could just fire several Hellfire missiles and wipe out entire companies, even more so than the Inheritance characters can with magic.

We could, but we probably won't. I don't think anyone but the most stereotypical hawks would use huge missiles against ground forces without tanks.

Are you so sure about that? We currently use drones with Hellfire against terrorists (and, unfortunately, civilians) without tanks.

And then, there is this. Look at the cockpit video. The Hellfire missile is being used against two human targets without tanks.

There's actually a procedure for targeting large groups of people standing around in the open.

"Infantry in open. Fuze for airburst."

People don't understand the raw power of artillery. It's mechanistic, impersonal, not intuitive. We associate World War I with the machinegun and the aircraft, but what it really proved was the power of indirect-fire artillery to devastate people moving around in the open. It was the artillery that took away infantry's role as a weapon of decision. The machine gun? We came up with ways to bring it forward with the infantry. The tank? They don't see too well, and for the rest there's shoulder-fired rockets.

That, and we could use surface-to-air missiles against the dragons.

And then, there's the morale of the Alagaesian soldiers...

Based on the Salvation War (the forces of Hell and Heaven vs Earth, written by a former defence analyst/adviser) and my current knowledge of the US military, it would be a total curb stomp. *Australia* could probably win.

We're talking about the US military, though. When did Australia get involved?

I was using Australia being able to win to emphasise just how overmatched the US military would be in this situation. i.e. if Australia could win, just how much easier would it be for America to win?

Ah, I see your point then.

Also, the Alagaesians currently have three guys from the US Army on their side. Will that change things?

I wouldn't think so.

Take, for example, dragons.

It's been a while since I've read anything from the Inheritance Cycle, and I haven't read the last two books, but I remember dragons being pretty damn powerful. Naturally, at some point, they're going to come up against fighters.

The thing is, fighters are designed for killing other fighters, so they're comparatively over powered. I don't know what radar cross section (RCS) a dragon will have, but large birds have an RCS of about 0.01M2. What this means is that a fighter will probably be able to detect and get a lock on a dragon from at least 10km away, quite possibly even as much as 70km away ( http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=63418#63418). At that range, they just need to launch radar guided missiles and they can be gone before the dragon rider even sees the jets.

And, even if the fighter does close to gun range, they'll be moving so fast, quite possibly from above the rider, and putting so many rounds where the dragon is, that the dragon and rider won't have any clue what hit them before they die.

Now we move on to artillery.

Starting big, the US can use 155mm artillery rounds from about 28km out. Each round contains 23lbs of high explosive, and 80lbs of fragment mass, which will end up in close to two thousand high velocity fragments. A single one of these shells could probably kill between thirty and sixty men out in the open if they were unprepared.

Actually, I forgot the MLRS. It can put 644 grenades with a 4 metre casualty radius into a 200 metre circle every three seconds or so. It's been called the "grid square removal system" as a result, because a full twelve rocket salvo can cover a square kilometre. Even if it hardly causes any casualties, can you imagine the effect that would have on morale?

My lunch break's over, so I won't get into mortars, GM Gs, attack helos, HM Gs, GPM Gs, LM Gs, rifles, UG Ls, etc, but all can kill from long, long ranges relative to medieval stuff.

Now, moving on to another side of the question, do you think we have a chance of seeing a repeating of Amazons Attack? Remeber, arrows vs. machine guns, pegasi vs. jet fighters? And how wonderful it turned out^note Granted, I'm basing on Linkara's review, but I guess I have no big reason to doubt it..

edited 14th Aug '13 8:38:07 PM by RN452

• watches the review*

That, well, it's not the stupidest thing I've ever heard off, but it's so damn close. Arrows taking out fighter jets. What. The HELL!?!?

I've only seen the movie of Eragon and have no real interest in reading them, but magic inevitably seems like it would fail against a modern military (especially the US) simply because most fantasy stories either A) take place in a low tech, High Fantasy world where it's magic during the middle ages or B) are part of The Masquerade and thus don't come in conflict with it.

And when they do? Magic usually only stands a chance because either the military gets handed an Idiot Ball or the magic has some sort of special aspect that forces them to come in close.

Part of the problem seems to be a case of most fantasy writers not doing the research before hand on just how overpowered the modern military actually is.

A rough continuation of my previous post, based on the review I just posted on the site:

Even if, say, jets can't be brought through the rift for whatever reason, there's still the issue of man portable systems. I'm unsure how the Stinger would go at locking on to a dragon, and it would probably require a software update to do it if it was possible, but a Javelin definitely could, because they've been used to target individual insurgents in Afghanistan. While it can take over 30 seconds from switching on until targeting can begin and the dragons will need to be flying relatively lowly for the missile to hit them, it moves fast enough that a dragon probably couldn't avoid it if it was blindsided or if multiple missiles were launched simultaneously, although it could probably dive down into the streets of the city or hug a building if it did see a Javelin coming for a kilometre or so out.

Lower tech wise, we have the cannons on the IF Vs and HM Gs carried by the infantry or mounted on Humvees and Strykers. The 25mm cannon on the Bradley, which will likely be firing a round roughly equivalent to a 40mm grenade in terms of HE content, weight and lethal radius, will be the biggest threat to dragons, but the .50 cals, if using the Mk 211 Mod 0 round, will also be pretty bad, detonating 30-40cm inside the dragon and sending fragments and rapidly burning particles of zirconium into the rapidly expanding temporary cavity that is tearing muscles and rupturing internal organs. The .50s will, of course, be less effective than the 25mms, which will be less effective than the Javelin which would be less effective than a Stinger if it worked.

Also, before I forget, tanks would also annihilate dragons with both their KE Ps and HEAT-MP rounds, both moving at over 1400 m/s at launch. Their HEAT-MP and canister rounds will also make short work of troops and buildings alike.

With the dragons all dead and drones dominating the skies, we come to the king of battle: artillery.

Initially, artillery will probably be provided by 60 and 82mm mortars, with 120mm mortars arriving not long after. While no good for direct fire purposes, mortars will blast through roofs with ease and, if WP smoke rounds are used, will probably set large areas of the city on fire, in addition to providing a short lived smoke that irritates the eyes and nose, more so for anyone with a sensitive nose. Pretty soon, though, 105mm and 155mm artillery will be brought in, and these will be devastating. Single projectiles will destroy buildings, the grenade dispersing rounds will drop explosive devices with a 4 metre casualty radius right into massive bodies of troops or enemy held areas, and beehive rounds will slaughter any direct assault on the guns. Eventually, MLRS will be brought in, and it's literally ten times worse per round.

In terms of dealing with magic users, most will either be near the combat but obviously not be fighting or will actively be using their magic in full view of US snipers. A single .50 cal round will likely penetrate any barrier thrown up by a magic user based on what you've written so far but, if it doesn't, a couple more probably will. And that's assuming the magic user's position wasn't already saturated with artillery fire.

Down in the trenches, snipers and DM Rs will be actively targeting anyone in any sort of armour that stands out or who has any designs/markings/insignia that separates them from the ordinary rank and file, depriving the enemy soldiers of vital leadership and experienced soldiers, while the others engage the rank and file, pinning them down, while other teams move to flank the enemy and catch them in a crossfire. Here, I think, you've under estimated how easy it would be to kill an Urgal. I'd suggest that a full mag might kill them, but not right away. A more reliable method would be using 40mm grenades, shotgun slugs and A T4s. This would be the initial way to deal with them, but the military would soon issue Mk 262 or Mk 318 rounds for better terminal performance, possibly in addition to increasing the number of 7.62mm weapons in each squad (eg: 7.62 M Gs and DM Rs). Ultimately, the 6.8 SPC or a similar round might end up being used.

Why do fantasy writers never do their research?

Has he responded to your review?

Yes. He said that he's no longer working on the story and that there's no reason to poke holes in it.

Are you serious?