Turkish Politics

I don't think it's possible to remove anyone out of NATO (or at least an official process does not exist). They can only leave by their free will.

'Nazism' is an extremely vague and specific political ideology anyway. It's essentially the most rotten manifestation of Frederick the Great's Eastern European tradition coupled with natiomalist authoritarianism and anti-Semitism.

Fascism, though, the root of Nazism, is still very much in vogue. Just look at France or the United States. Or heck, look at Turkey.

This seems like the sort of thing there should probably have been a plan for.

edited 17th Apr '17 1:28:46 AM by math792d

Not when NATO was created. A right-wing authoritarian would've been tolerated as long as he hated Communists.

But what if one of the NATO member states had become the Communists?

dramatic-hamster.mp4

For the record, the Wehrmacht narrative is mostly about giving a lot of Germans a peace of mind. If you had a son who was called to the front during the war, would you want him equated to being a Nazi? If you are the parents or one of the children of the members of the White Rose, a lot of them having been in the Hitler Youth or had served at the front (where do you think the White Rose got the information about what was really going on from?) would you want them get called Nazis? Just let it rest. There is no worth in this.

Concerning the Turkish vote, I might buy into the notion of "yeah, those were the ones who felt a connection to their home country" if not for the fact that in a lot of countries there was a clear "No" from the Turkish voters. But then, Erdogan didn't really care about those, did he? He cared about the ones living in Germany because they are the largest group. And he pulled them to his side by flinging abuse towards Germany. Well, if Germany is such a horrible place to be, how about going back to Turkey?

And yes, I am now becoming a little bit unreasonable. I will most likely eventually calm down, remind myself that I shouldn't betray my own ideals just because a bunch of ungrateful thugs doesn't appreciate them, but I would be lying by claiming that it won't be difficult.

Still, I think it shows that it is time to end the double citizenship for Turks as well as cracking down on the Visa-Agreements. Arrangements like this have to be built on trust between the two nations involved, and I don't think that this trust still exists between Germany and Turkey (also, I have said it before, but it bears repeating, I want the German soldiers out of Turkey! I don't think that they are safe on the base there).

Fascism is not nearly as prevalent today as it was back then. And for one thing it does not name itself like that, precisely because it is far less prevalent or socially acceptable.

I am assuming the dual-citizenship was a case of It Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time. Presumably back before Erdogan lost his shit (or decided he didn't need his Mask of Sanity anymore).

edited 17th Apr '17 1:41:10 AM by M84

I guess it was mostly meant as a welcoming gesture....didn't work.

x5

CIA led coup/assassination of the relevant parties. Can't just start killing top level politicians these days.

I'm more worried about the possible anti-Erdogan networks that will pop-up among the military officers in exile and others (including inside Turkey).

edited 17th Apr '17 1:49:25 AM by TerminusEst

I suspect that if it wasn't an option in the first place, compelling hopeful immigrants to make a firm decision between Turkey and Germany, the ones who became German citizens would feel more of an attachment to Germany. Dual citizenship made it easier for some of them to think of themselves as Turkish first and German second.

edited 17th Apr '17 1:58:56 AM by M84

Exactly...but explain that the SPD.

Or it could result in them not picking up a citizenship at all, essentially remaining as a segregated community inside German borders without meaningfully integrating as long as their work visas weren't under threat.

It exists as a way for the postwar German government to save face and be allowed to integrate Nazi Germany-era (even completely unrepentent war criminals and members of the Nazi Party from before they took power) public officials without making it seem as if they were trying to rehabilitate a whole bunch of genocidal racists who'd murdered upwards of 45 million people. It exists as a way to justify rapid West German rearmament, bolstering their numbers with officers found guilty for so many war crimes and crimes against humanity it's almost comedic, including professional war crime dodger, historical revisionist and supreme commander of the Eastern Front Erich von Manstein. It exists as a post-hoc, weak-tea excuse for why the Nazis took over that the postwar generation then had to work overtime to murder the fuck out of.

And regardless of whether or not it exists, it's still bald-faced historical revisionism fabricated in part by the West German government before the bodies in Eastern Europe were even cold, and it's beyond fucking disgusting.

edited 17th Apr '17 2:47:48 AM by math792d

I guess dual citizenship is just one of those things that doesn't make too much sense to me. Particularly if the relationship between the countries involved is not a very friendly one.

I mean, in theory every citizen of the European Union has dual citizenship - a national citizenship and a European citizenship.

I suppose, but being part of the EU in theory means that the relationship between the countries is...cordial, or at least not too hostile. In theory.

It's not much of an issue between the EU states and there it is actually kind of a good thing because people move around a lot and why should the child of, let's say, a French/German pair make a decision about it, especially when the pair in question keeps skipping over the borders all the time. It is also something which can happen if for example a German couple gets a child in the US, since the child will automatically German by heritage but US-citizen by birth. But those are countries which are very similar to each others. Keeping the Turkish citizenship can actually lead to problems. The Journalist who got arrested in Turkey has a dual citizenship and now the German government can't intervene on his behalf, because Turkey simply says that his Turkish pass is the one which counts. If he had just the German citizenship, it would be a case of the German citizen being hold in Turkey on phoney charges, which would make it way easier to free him.

Yeah, dual-citizenship is tricky when one country tries to claim that its citizenship counts for more than the other one.

This is apparently the statement of the international observers for the Turkey referendum◊ (an image)

edited 17th Apr '17 5:30:31 AM by TerminusEst

And even with all of that, Yes only barely passed.

edited 17th Apr '17 8:29:35 AM by M84

The OSCE certainly thinks so. The tweet links to their press conference as well.

Not even a 2% margin.

Referendums and laws shouldn't be passed with a margin this tight.

Yeesh, at least Brexit was probably legitimate as far as the vote count goes.

A <2% margin with all of the signs of voter intimidation shenanigans? Yeah, that's definitely a crystal clear mandate.

edited 17th Apr '17 8:29:15 AM by M84

Getting better still...
Turkish body urges state of emergency extension

I'm royally pissed off. I live in Germany and i just can't fathom that so many turkish people living here have voted in favour of the referendum. Enjoying their freedom here and voting for a dictatorship for their poor compatriots over there.

Scumbags.

edited 18th Apr '17 10:35:51 AM by Forenperser

Easy now. A backlash against them won't help, especially if the ones who voted "no" either get attacked or attack in internal troubles of the Turkish communities.