Shin Megami Tensei IV *SPOILERS ABOUND*

I hope it's a remake of 1 and 2. It would be nice to have a modernized version that could be released internationally.

edited 13th Dec '16 9:17:33 PM by Kostya

Oh, huh. According to the Wikia, the "Observation" concept was first mentioned in supplemental materials for SMTII.

It's sorta implied throughout the series- Strange Journey definitely makes use of it, for example, even if it doesn't call it by name.

It's also a real-world quantum physics concept that makes no sense to my puny brain.

Is it weird that I find YHVH to be such a fun boss that I maintain a save right before Him so I can fight Him over and over again when I'm bored?

Not really. I've done that sort of thing in other games. It doesn't seem weird at all. I just wish more games let you refight bosses.

What do you all think about Dagda and the Massacre route? (Personally, I disagree with Dadga but I can kind of see where he's coming from.)

I personally really like them. I just find Danu a complete idiot and currently only going on the Bonds Route to get Asahi's Awakening.

You find Danu an idiot? Why? I like her since she rescued me on Bonds, but in any case I think both Danu and Dagda are interesting characters.

edited 1st Jan '17 3:09:57 AM by PastryPerson

Okay, idiot was just the first word that came to mind when I looked at Danu's actions. In hindsight, Hypocrite would be more accurate. Plus, she is very controlling as opposed to Dagda who only takes control if he wants Nanashi to do something that will advance his goals and he won't do so voluntarily (i.e. unsealing Krishna if Nanashi chickens out like Asahi). It also somewhat helps that I'm an individualist like Dagda.

edited 1st Jan '17 3:43:22 AM by CybranGeneralSturm

I don't see her as controlling. I mean, she never actually physically takes control of anybody (unlike Dagda), and she seems to replace Dagda less because she plain doesn't care about her bond with him (which would indeed make her a Hypocrite), and more because he was planning on killing a poor boy who chose not to obey him.

Dagda's a lot more controlling than Danu, in any case. He constantly refers to you as his puppet. /:

Even then, Dagda's a bit of a hypocrite, too. "Walk your own path, free from others"; he says this, but he's the one who's been manipulating you the entire time.

"So, you won't be my Godslayer? Then the power I gave you, your very life; I'll take it all back! Think on what it means to betray me, as you stare into the cold abyss of death!"

edited 1st Jan '17 3:55:51 AM by PastryPerson

I am aware of that, but then again Danu's controlling is very subtle and hard to notice since she does not do it directly as opposed to Dagda (who as I said earlier does this infrequently).

That is true about Dagda (hypocrisy), although he doesn't really have a choice in the matter since only humans can kill gods.

"You now walk a path divergent from their own, kid. A path that you alone have chosen. Put aside your pity. Be determined. Now, kill every last one of them. We'll use their souls to help make our new universe."

edited 1st Jan '17 4:00:23 AM by CybranGeneralSturm

I wouldn't call it infrequent. It's more that it happens during the entire game, but it only becomes apparent when he literally starts manipulating your body.

Even then, he does call you a puppet several times. He can afford to do this because...well, you are. If you go against him, he'll just kill you.

Huh. That is true. I still side with Dagda because I really don't like Danu. Also because Gaston steals turns.

edited 1st Jan '17 4:25:46 AM by CybranGeneralSturm

Well, I less "sided with Danu" and more "sided with my friends", though it doesn't hurt that Danu agreed with me. I would be more inclined to join Dagda personally if I could convince my friends to join me in becoming "more than human" (cutting the "solitary" part of his philosophy out) and supported me a bit more, I'd actually find myself conflicted on whether to support Danu or Dagda. Not wanting to be alone and Dagda's treatment of me are the main deal-breakers for me.

Would help if Dagda had less chilling music, too.

edited 1st Jan '17 4:24:36 AM by PastryPerson

I'll admit; having only one partner for Massacre seems fitting because Nanashi will need someone with him. Gaston I can betray without a second thought because of his press-turn stealing and Hallelujah was part of the Ashura-kai, who were genuine Jerkasses in vanilla SMT IV.

If only Bonds had a choice to get rid of Gaston I would take it. As it does not, Massacre is my route of choice. Let's face it, Gaston will steal all of Nanashi's press turns at least once.

edited 1st Jan '17 4:33:52 AM by CybranGeneralSturm

That's a bit cold, isn't it? Gaston does genuinely become a better person (press-turns were an issue but I usually go with Toki instead); a bit risky as a partner throughout the entire game, sure, but he becomes a nice and likable character gradually. As for Hallelujah; he's genuinely a good person and works hard as the leader of the Ashura Kai.

Dagda might frequently force Nanashi to do what he wants, but he never removes his entire free will and use his now completely enslaved body as a meatsuit to do his bidding like Krishna does. Indeed for as much as he uses Nanashi he also talks to him as a person, trying to teach him to be his own person. You have to pick some pretty obvious actions and a couple others like Kanda and Hostage Asahi where he stops you directly.

It's why Krishna brings it up when he does it in front of him, viewing it as unsettling since demons talking to their godslayer objects like they're people is not common.

And funny enough Gaston's part of the reason Dagda isn't wrong. He has some pretty good development as a person, but beyond that he doesn't really add or provide anything beneficial to the story or gameplay. You generally do what he does better.

edited 1st Jan '17 5:49:40 AM by OmegaRadiance

I think that's less that Dagda doesn't do that because he doesn't want to, more that he can't; I've always had the impression that a god couldn't control their Godslayer completely, so he couldn't use him as a meatsuit.

Even if he could, that'd also be counterproductive to his goals since it'd remove his free will completely. Humans have the power of observation and can invigorate or kill gods, so if Dagda in Nanashi's body was making those observations...well, no Godslaying. Though I suppose Dagda could pull a Krishna and Fusion Dance with Nanashi to create a God with the power of observation (which seems to be what Vishnuflynn was supposed to be), that would prove to be problematic if Nanashi pulled a Flynn and started Fighting from the Inside; even if it wasn't enough to outright un-fuse them, having Nanashi, the human in the fusion resist Dagda, the god in the fusion, would likely not only leave Dagda without Godslayer powers, but weaken the fusion altogether.

In any case, it's a lot easier to just try coercing him instead of completely taking him over. Though Dagda actually does seem to have warmed up to the protagonist during Massacre.

I'd argue that Gaston played a pivotal part in battling Shesha, too, with the Spear Of Michael (though that was indeed more him and Nanashi than just him), but even still, Nanashi can't do everything, Gaston or not.

As for Krishna; does he do that? IIRC he doesn't really seem to care, particularly; he even talks to you and asks you to take his hand and join him during his battle, so he's not above talking to Godslayers.

edited 1st Jan '17 6:36:42 AM by PastryPerson

You can do it though and Dagda knows enough as a god of knowledge that he can. Even Vishnuflynn does on Massacre. Sure friends can get in the way, to an extent, but without someone strong enough to back them that won't help them free said Godslayer.

Plus Dagda wants Nanashi to chose to be the new creator, not forced upon him. Dagda also knows a Godslayers full potential is brought out when they choose their fate, unlike one that's forced upon them. That's why Dagda never forces Nanashi to make the deal and lets him pass on if he refuses. Once he makes the deal though he expects him to keep it.

edited 1st Jan '17 6:37:43 AM by OmegaRadiance

That's kind of my point; Dagda's plan only works if there's some level of agreement between him and Nanashi, one that doesn't exist if he's a meat-puppet.

...though this sort of raises the question of how Flynn was a Godslayer if he was enslaved, and why Dagda didn't just to this to Nanashi.

edited 1st Jan '17 6:48:36 AM by PastryPerson

You can be a godslayer and be enslaved. That was also my point, but your full power is kept from being used.

Even normal humans can be godslayers as they point out, but Messiahs are the strongest. Unlike a lot of Gods Dagda also gives his power to Nanashi to use instead of the other way.

Messiah seems to be more of a title than anything, but yeah, every human (through the power of observation) can at least affect a god's power by a very minuscule amount (when a lot of humans start to observe the same thing, that's when things get real). Being a Godslayer is what makes your observations especially powerful, to the point where you can actually demonize the Creator God.

edited 1st Jan '17 7:04:05 AM by PastryPerson

Messiah isn't a title. It's a unique role certain souls born of the Axiom play, as it sees through their eyes specifically and can make several if one isn't enough.

Ah, that's right; forgot about that.