You are Hitler, now take over Europe

Odd thought, transferring from the Napoleon thread:

"Could taking the Pope help or hurt the Nazis?"

Hurt, most definitely. It'd have no techinical advantage for them, and it'd monumentarily piss off all of christiandom [and all religions, as well].

But on the other hand, "quietly inviting" the Pope to stay in an undisclosed location and torturing the guy half to death just might get him on the Nazi's side.

Hell, Hitler might even do one better and NOT torture the guy (water boarding isn't very Nazi is it?) but come up with an understanding.

A share of the profits, a new state religion, some concession...

Its not as if the Catholic Church was against Religious Wars or persecuting Jews all that much.

Ouch.

But how do we get the Pope working "with" (for) the Reich?

Uh...Torture? A cut of plundered Jewish Gold? Jewish boys with currently virgin asses?

While Hitler seems like a violent, delusional egomaniac (hey, he's got a little in common with Pope. ), he still was able to (temporarily) form an alliance with Stalin.

Granted, friendships among leaders/dictators (political or religious) from different factions are probably only going to stay friendly for about the time it takes to get a knife and back stab, it is possible.

There's also that Italian fascist to consider. What was his name again?

And while we're at it, might as well try to create a big ol' fascist Europe by getting Franco in there too. Tyranny for everybody!

Kidnapping the Pope would already monumentarily piss off all of christiandom. Torturing him would be an even worse idea, people would somewhat notice the leader of catholicism vanishing out of the thin air for some "enhanced convicing techiniques" by the Nazis.

Even in case this all worked and the Pope was arrested and torture without making everything worse, what they'd do? Torture a 70-years old man with a fragile health? That has a high potential to backfire [like the Pope having a fatal heart attack].

Supposing he can be tortured and survive without anything going wrong. Then if that works, they'd need to keep him arrested or he'd immediately tell the world that he's been tortured. Keeping him arrested = recipe for disaster.

Now, if we are talking about deals, there is a considerably high difference between making a deal with Josef Stalin, a megalomaniacal power hungry lunatic, and The Pope. Hitler was very antagonistic towards most religions as the war dragged on [as are most dictators], that would already have strained their relationship an awful lot. The Church also isn't an Empire [not in this period, at least], it has no needs for conquered lands.

So that leaves us with offering the leader of the catholic church, a very powerful and rich organization...gold. In exchange for supporting them, risking to summon the wrath of the Allied Powers and all the other religious communities, giving the Church one Hell of a bad rap [which is even worse when you remember Hitler already kinda hated christianism].

There's also the fact the Church did speak again the jewish problem later on, only very indirectly.

But as I understood it, the Vatican was basically surrounded by Italy, a nation that was allied with the Nazis. What's the Pope going to do? Say "No." to Hitler? (Hell, the Bishops would probably toss the Pope out of his ass to save their hide.)

The Catholic Church's power wouldn't need to be a standing army, it has moral force.

If they can convince even a small percent of Christians to take a stance that helped the Nazi cause more, it could be worth it.

The only question is, how much would Hitler have to pay, and how much could he get out of that relationship?

Yes, that's exactly what he's going to do. He's the leader of the world's most powerful religion, he knows he can't be harmed [which is why he wasn't, Hitler was insane, but at the time, he had some priorities]. Hell, even as the Pope was in this tight spot, the Vatican was crawling with MI 6 agents. Because, like I said, he's the leader of the world's most powerful religion, the Allied Forces would keep a close watch on him. Kidnap the Pope and expect your situation to only get worse [Hell, I wouldn't even doubt a few Cardinals outside of the Reich's reach simply ellecting a new Pope and contuining business as usual in case he was kidnapped].

Like I said, Hitler was antagonistic with the Catholic Church later on his rule [Like most dictrators, who think they're the only thing that must be worshipped], and the Church, like it does nowadways, was neutral towards him until he the Holocaust went on, where the Church started to voice their disapproval subtly.

I just think that there's nothing Hitler would offer that could counter-balance the losses. The Church gets gold or whatever to help Hitler, but doing so pisses off the British Empire and the rest of Europe [and probably the United stated], it just isn't worth the effort.

I think the "negotiations" will basically go somewhat like this:

Hitler to Pope: "Who gives the orders to the Church?"

Pope to Hitler: "Me."

BANG

Hitler to Next Guy In Line: "Who gives the orders to the Church?"

Repeat until someone gives the right answer or you run of guys.

Whoever is Left to Hitler: "You oh most benevolent and merciful Fuher, leader of the blessed German peoples and visionary of the Reich!"

Then you blame the deaths on a Zionist plot.

Jews, is there anything they CAN'T be blamed for?

edited 27th May '13 3:49:02 PM by Natasel

Oh come on, he was batshit insane but not that bathshit insane. Or maybe he was but his generals were not.

Cooperation of the Church with Hitler was not out of realm of possibility. The Pope was quite silent about atrocities of fascist regimes.

Only for some time, out of pragmatism. After a while passed, The Pope started condemning the nazis crimes in disgused ways in a few of his speeches. He didn't do that directly because he wasn't insane.

The main thing that makes me doubt of a Church-Hitler alliance is that pissing off half of Europe and the United States doesn't seem like a good deal. Also Hitler being extremely antagonistic towards the religion in general.

Yup.

Killing Jews is central to Catholic Faith. Over 2000 years later and they STILL won't shut up about one they nailed to a cross.

Anyway, a big part of this would be timing.

Its not just How Hitler will pull this off, but When.

Can't do it before he seizes power and by the time the Russians and Americans were in Berlin it would be too late.

So what would be the optimal time to grab the Pope? (Popehood? Pope Power? Popishness?)

Its the Catholic Church. The self appointed unassailable word of God on Earth. Do you really think they give a damn what the rest of the world thinks?

As long as the world thinks what they want it to think, everything else might as well be minor details to them.

edited 27th May '13 4:01:27 PM by Natasel

This talk reminds me that one anticlerical newspaper in Poland dig up historical evidence that the Catholic Church cooperated with Polish Stalinist regime, and only resisted when the latter tried to appoint new bishops and vicars themselves. Still, the Church sucked up to Communists enough to get their unjust priviledges and preferential treatment that hasn't been eliminated to this day. Of course, The Church like whitewashing themselves and claim to be main stronghold against Communism during that day.

The Church relies on people believing in them, therefore, it's best not to piss off the people who rule those believers in the most powerful continent of the world. It's logic.

And there's the fact that, seriously, the church isn't Always Chaotic Evil, man.

I never said they were.

Anyway, I'm thinking Hitler could offer to spare anyone who coverts to a Catholic. That big enough an incentive?

Say what you will, but Death Camp VS Jesus Camp seems like a no brainer.

edited 27th May '13 4:18:21 PM by Natasel

That seems like a pretty good idea that could actually work, but pretty unchacteristic for...well...Hitler.

I figure he just thought. "Busy. Kill you later."

Anyway, Hitler could be a backstabbing ass (Stalin would agree) so its just a question of when.

Its not as if the people he spared today can't be killed tomorrow right?

Besides, the Death Camps were so backed up that there were survivors after World War 2.

Part of Hitler's self imposed victory condition was that there would be no more Jews.

Having them mill about the Vatican instead of clogging up his gas chambers would be a temporary solution.

edited 27th May '13 4:41:04 PM by Natasel

Just realized.

The Japs and Germans were allied, its possible that Hitler got the idea from Japan with their history of Shoguns.

A military dictator that allows someone else, (the Japanese Emperor claims divine ancestry) to take the moral/religious high ground while he keeps all the money, military and power.

Basically someone who lets a holy man act like a dancing monkey for the masses.

The term or translation might not exist in German but if Hitler got the idea, he could apply it.

This would probably have to happen after Pearl Harbor though, and if the Nazis could hold off antagonizing the Americans long enough, their grip on Europe should be stronger....

Though Hitler already had the divine ancestry shtick, only less blatant, but german propaganda wasn't exactly sublte on essentially calling him The Messiah that would save the germanic people [but of course, There Can Be Only One Messiah, hence his bouts with the Catholic Church..]

Being German Messiah is not quite as big (or the same) as Catholic Messiah.

German Messiah saves German(y) (Aryans? Master Race?). Catholic Messiah saves EVERYONE. (Unless you were a Jew, or a Muslim, or any religion BUT Catholic, somewhat if you are woman, and if you're an Altar boy.... )

Anyway, it would make sense for Hitler to "convince" the Pope to follow his orders.

That should be enough to tip the scales somewhat.

@ G

You seem to know a bit about the Catholic Church.

Do you have any idea if a genocidal mad man had control, how could the Church be used to further his goals?

The most prominent thing that comes to mind for me would be the Crusades but if the Church had a standing army worth anything, they would have used them already.

edited 27th May '13 7:44:16 PM by Natasel

Actually, Japan bombing pearl harbor was a mistake in the long run. The Japanese commanders knew it was a mistake precisely because they knew the US had the industrial capacity and population to flat out bum rush them to death.

Arguable, Germany could have sold the secret of synthetic oil to Japan so they wouldn't be dependent on american oil.

Well, there's the fact I'm catholic.

Well, it depends on the period. If we're talking about it nowadways, it could only be used to help in case said mad man wanted a ideological war. Maybe attempting to use the Pope's influence to convert nations to his ideology. I suppose one could try some embezzlement scheme or trying to fund guerrillas through the Church, but frankly, there are far easier [and less-attention calling, since churches all over the world suddenly providing mercenaries with weapons would be kinda suspicious] ways to do that than using the Church, that seems like complicating a simple issue.

Now, the Church in the crusades era, that was a force to be reckoned with. It owned more lands than most kingdoms in Europe combined, so it could easily bend any King to its will for any goal. Or, Hell, just hire some swiss mercenaries and do whatever the Hell you see fit.

Wasn't victory actually pretty much guaranteed for Hitler so long as he was smart enough to avoid pissing off Russia, and he was smart enough to avoid Japan pissing off America?