Duplicate Trope: Casting Gag

Transplanted from Trope Talk based on an opinion there.

The first line says it comes into play "when an actor's role in a film in some way mirrors or parodies their Real Life circumstances and/or career and other roles they're famous for."

(Emphasis mine.)

But it's also insistent that "sometimes it may overlap with Actor Allusion for another character where their respective actors have worked together before." But that's not what Actor Allusion says it is. Furthermore, it says Actor Allusion is "any character, plot or situation that references a previous plot or role for the actor."

(Again, emphasis mine.)

This has totally confused me, and given the examples, I'm not the only one. Is there a reason why Actor Allusion and Casting Gag should not be merged?

I would strike the "overlap" sentence as it seems to be completely nonsensical.

In a Casting Gag, you cast the actor based on the previous role. The resonance/juxtaposition is funny.

In an Actor Allusion, the actor's already a part of the show. You insert a line alluding to a previous role of his.

But I'm sure there's tons of misuse for both.

So then how do we know which is which, then, absent Word of God? Even something that was only put in during episode 30 could've been planned from before the beginning.

Come to think of it, what about when the actor being alluded to isn't actually present, but is known for having played the role (such as in fan works like The Joker Blogs)?

I think Amy's got it.

Okay, at least that's clear. But again, short of Word of God, how do we know which is which for any given example? And is this really a distinction we want to hang a hat on with all the potential and actual misuse?

Because of how it plays out, Adam West playing a chessy 60s super-hero would be Casting Gag, Adam West just playing a "normal" character and they happen to hum the Batman theme would be Actor Allusion.

One is when the whole role is tailored after another character their known for playing, the other is one off jokes referencing the role.

edited 22nd Apr '13 4:38:43 PM by shoboni

Then "Casting Gag" is kind of a misnomer. It's a writing gag, really, since the writing comes first, and then the intended casting.

Anyway, I'm still skeptical that the distinction is worth the misuse. Everyone just uses Actor Allusion for everything anyway, I'd expect.

Well, kinda, it's Casting Gag because the gag is based around who they cast in the role.

edited 22nd Apr '13 5:19:20 PM by shoboni

My point was that they don't cast the role, then write stuff. They write stuff first, THEN get the intended guy. So it's more of a writing gag than a casting one.

Earlier point still holds, though.

Not always, sometimes writers write a role with a certain actor in mind, like Lauren Faust having John de Lancie in mind when she wrote Discord.

How... is that different from what I said?

Well, you could call it either, really. It's a personal preference thing.

edited 22nd Apr '13 6:25:03 PM by shoboni

Okay, I understand the (supposed) difference between the tropes now, but I still think it's a too-fine point on which to hang a difference, especially without Word of God to establish whether the chicken or the egg came first. I still seriously advocate merging. Failing that, I think Casting Gag needs a massive cleanup and a heavy emphasis note to demonstrate within the trope which came first.

It's not about which came first, the difference is how prominent/blatant it is. One is for passing nods, the other is for when the whole character(or a large part of them) revolves around the joke.

Um, what? Where do you get that interpretation? I don't see any mention of severity or amount at all, either in the descriptions or in this thread. I thought the difference was whether the reference was written for an actor they knew would be cast in a role, or whether someone was cast based on an association one could make with previous roles.

Look again, a Casting Gag is when the entire role parodies something about the actor, Actor Allusion is just when they make simple a joke(s) here and there.

edited 30th Apr '13 11:16:08 AM by shoboni

I know. I just don't see how that has anything to do with "how prominent or blatant" it is.

Because one is blatantly hitting you over the head with the joke the whole time the character is one screen, the other is kinda there.

I don't see anything resembling any of that in either trope description. Point out what I'm missing?

Okay, I just looked, your not seeing because the descriptions are horrible.

Just to note: I agree these tropes are misused. I was just adding and crosswicking examples at ActorAllusion.Live Action TV, and the very first example from that page should be deleted.

• On Teen Wolf, this is certainly not intentional, but Michael Hogan (Gerard Argent) also played a bitter, genocidal-against-people-with-abilities, Jerkass in Smallville.
  • It's also not the first time he's been revealed to be/almost become the thing he despises.

The natter part misses context entirely. And if the first part is meant to be sarcasm, well then, at least put it in Sarcasm Mode tag, but that's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I prefer clean and clear examples without fan myopia. Snarkiness is good, but it has its limits. :-)

No offense, then how do you know that those elements are supposed to be part of those tropes in the first place?

I read the pages waaaaaaaay back before they went to hell(and both are kinda established off wiki to a point, especially Casting Gag)

edited 1st May '13 7:57:46 PM by shoboni

Perhaps a Wayback Machine version can be dug up to see what they were before? I'm about to eat dinner, myself, so I may do it later.

But then the conversation becomes whether we want to keep the old definitions and requirements to begin with.