LGBTQ+ Rights Worldwide

DAFUQ?!

The Germans didn't repeal the sodomy statute immediately.

Nor did the rest of Europe. The British convicted one of the scientists, who broke the German code, of sodomy. Afterwards he killed himself.

edited 29th Apr '13 1:47:26 PM by Silasw

I feel I did Germany a little bit of a disservice - West Germany re-imprisoned its LGBTQ prisoners. Stalinist East Germany did not.

I feel that this◊ is pretty much the only appropriate response to these facts.

Chirchill said that Alan Turing did more to win the war than anyone else that he (Churchill) knew of. So obviously they had to inject hormones into his body to "cure" him of his homosexuality.

The fate of Alan Turing is one of the saddest things I've ever heard.

@Achaemenid, I meant that those acts (beatings, starvation, force feeding of nasty things, etc) and the results (dead or looking like a famine victim at best) were the same in both cases. The fact remains that if this guy is guilty (everyone deserves a fair trial) he has basically committed what would be war crimes/crimes against humanity if there done on a larger scale/during wartime. At the very least he belongs in prison for a few decades, if not for life.

And I agree that the parents, if they were aware of what was going on and sent the kids/didn't take them out and report the camp to the police should be charged as accessories.

Churchill was also really, really into eugenics, including advocating mandatory forced labour and sterilisation for the 'feeble-minded'.

Despite all Turing did, he probably didn't have too much of a beef with what the government did to the poor guy.

edited 29th Apr '13 2:56:22 PM by Iaculus

Alan Turing shortens the war and fathers computer science and is rewarded with chemical castration and his subsequent suicide. Werner von Braun designs prototypical cruise missiles for Nazi Germany that kill hundreds and is rewarded with a cushy job at NASA. It makes for an interesting comparison, I think.

NASA tried to build the rockets just based on the German designs, but they could never get them to work.

Not to defend the actions of Churchill and others...but homosexuality was listed in the DSM until 1973. During WWII it was considered a "mental illness" by legitimate medical professionals of the time. It can be fairly said that perhaps, people did this to Turing "for his own good".

Not that this makes it right but it does make it more understandable. We modern citizens tend to listen to our doctors when they tell us stuff, just as guys like Churchill did.

Hanlon's Razor, guys.

It probably wasn't for Turing's own good, but there actually was a (somewhat) legitimate reason to find gay people in powerful positions and take those positions away from them. During the Cold War it was feared that an enemy spy could find out that someone was gay and then use that information to blackmail the target into giving some classified information in exchange for the secret staying secret.

If you found out that one of your top guys was gay you had to get rid of him (and back then it was almost always "him") or risk the enemy finding out. Because of the public opinion about homosexuality you couldn't even say that your top scientists/politician/whatever wasn't breaking a law - if they were afraid that public opinion would turn against them if their homosexuality was to come out they would be tempted to give something in exchange for keeping the secret.

So I know that it's not just black-and-white. That doesn't make it less depressing that this had to happen to Turing.

It's telling that the final of Goodnight Sweetheart has Gray saving not Churchhill but his successor Clement Attlee.

But the only reason that their sexuality could be used as blackmail material was because of the general opprobrium of homosexuality at the time. "We can't trust gay people with positions of authority because they might be blackmailed over their sexuality because we don't trust gay people."

It's not a mitigating effect, it's an aggravating one.

Edit for ninja

edited 30th Apr '13 1:43:30 AM by KnightofLsama

That was the exact reasoning Canadian courts used when they declared the RCMPs "fruit test" (yes, that's what they called their methods of detecting homosexuals in the civil service) unconstitutional. Granted it didn't happen until 1990 but better late than never.

I guess that test... never bore fruit.

I agree. I hope my post didn't come off as suggesting otherwise.

YEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!

Don't Explain the Joke

eh! a few pages of comments back, your comments on ireland, with a good few of you suggesting it's a homophobic overly catholic country still, please have a clue what you're talking about. the vast majority of the younger members of society (forty and under, we'll say) are in favour of it, even those raised by homophobic parents, a growing number of the older ones are also in favour of it, and only a tiny bigoted fraction of the population (some of the old and wealthy- the old naturally pass away, and the recession has left few wealthy; those that were wealthy are now exposed to society as a whole and become more tolerant)

We were making a blatant display of ignorance, or, to be precise, we were demonstrating that we made hypotheses based on outdated and second-hand information; we spoke to the best of our knowledge, and, on that topic, the best wasn't very good. However, we were open to correction, and incorporated new information that contradicted our initial understanding of the situation quickly and efficiently. I do believe we acted impeccably from beginning to end, and that saying such a thing as "please get a clue" is not only rude, it is uncalled for. Your punctuation and capitalization could use some improvement, too.

Don't take it personal.

edited 30th Apr '13 2:06:36 PM by joeyjojo

"Sinead's Hand"

What legislative hurdles does Ireland face in legalizing gay marriage? (And how do you pronounce the names of the offices involved? The word 'Taoiseach' always confounded me.)

@Vincent

Grammar dude.

Also, looking back over the thread, I didn't really get that vibe. I even pointed out that the days of "Catholic Ireland" are over, thanks in part to the Cloyne speech.

it's pronounced tea-shock there's an awful lot of ignorance on the internet, I tend to get a bit sick of it and overreact when someone makes an honest mistake. Apologies about the grammar, i tend to disregard it on the internet, which is strange seeing as i usually try to have perfect grammar while texting etc. but forget it online. the "get a clue" line i admit was a bit hostile, but the point still stands that one should have either research or experience before making blanket statements, although my response was overly hostile.

edited 1st May '13 6:55:40 AM by VincentQuill