The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Wouden't this run into the assumption that Good/Evil can only be created by divine beings?

edited 13th Dec '17 10:31:39 AM by MorningStar1337

If I were an evil god, I'd create a universe with just enough hope to make the despair that much more fun.

There's a reason Hope is considered one of the evils from Pandora's Box according to some.

Ah yes, the Elpis that was locked with all the world's ills. Makes sense.

Come to think of it. it is possible for a God of Evil to create good to to have someone to prove their dominance over. Specifically to give evil proof of its superiority. But still, it is just as possible that the antithesis would be created as a natural reaction to the thesis, regardless of if they directly created it or not.

edited 13th Dec '17 11:13:51 AM by MorningStar1337

God Is Amoral would be a more realistic take on it, I think.

"Why is there Evil?"

"More interesting that way"

"But then why is there good?"

"Because you need good guys to fight the bad guys."

edited 13th Dec '17 11:16:32 AM by Elfive

The Iranaean theory of Theodicy more or less states God put suffering in the world and gave us the capacity for evil exactly because the whole concept is to let us conquer evil through freewill, for it is through that we will become much greater beings. It is reversed (and it's quite amusing how one easily leaps to the assumption that a evil God would create good to triumph over it rather than the other way around).

The Augustinian theory states that God didn't create evil, evil is the absence of God more or less caused by mankind refusing to accept God's grace.

The problem of evil isn't new.

edited 13th Dec '17 11:20:26 AM by Gaon

Maybe the issue is that you can't have people 100% happy all the time. They'd just end up gormless drones. You gotta have ups and downs to drive people to do anything, and no matter how steep the slope is people are gonna perceive the bottom as the Worst Thing Ever.

So, by injecting "bad" you give more room for people to be more or less happy most of the time.

x4 I think Exalted did something like that. The Ebon Dragon (or the Primordial that eventually became the Ebon Dragon, I'm not sure which) was the creator of the Unconquered Sun (the top god in the setting). The Ebon Dragon is supposed to be the embodiment of all that is evil, so he needed to have someone embodying good so he could be evil.

Prior to Exalted's titanomachy the Ebon Dragon was known as the Dragon's Shadow. He was a sort of living shadow shaped like the one his current self casts.

And yeah, he had the Unconquered Sun created in order to define himself, as he's the embodiment of nemesis and betrayal.

Exalted shys away from any notions of absolute good and evil, of course. More of a morally grey Mythic Hero type thing.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

This sums up the whole idea we're discussing very well, I think. Evil has its own place in the grand tapestry of life.

Of course, the Problem of Evil is all over The Silmarillion. if God is omnipotent or omniscient why the hel did he genocide the Numenoreans? All the warriors and "sinners" weren't even on the island. Plus Ero knew all along people would suffer and die, he knew that from Arda's inception in the Music. He knew every last drop of blood that would be spilled yet he permitted it to happen. Many would argue that is unjust but perhaps Eru is simply the ultimate utilitarian.

I am thinking since it's Hanukkah, we should talk more about Jewish traditions and faith. I also want to add that while looking for books on Hanukkah, I found this neat Hanukkah version of Christmas Carol. It was a good surprise, because I thought the storyline would fit Hanukkah as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Hanukkah-Shmanukkah-Esme-Raji-Codell/dp/0786851791

The big problem with this is that it doesn't address what is sometimes called "Natural Evil", suffering, torment, death etc that are brought about by natural forces. Earthquakes, floods, tsunami's, rogue waves etc. Stuff that humans have little to no control over and even in the twenty-first century, limited ability to predict and mitigate.

And that's not getting into some of the nastier examples of parasitism in the animal world like the wasps of the genus Ampulex. Little as I like 'roaches, the Ampulex wasps' reproductive habits are just plain disturbing.

Under the Augustinian Theory, that's just nature being nature, it doesn't have ill intent. The reason natural disaster cause problems for us is due our refusal of God's grace. So, from what I gather, in the Augustinian theory the only reason hurricanes or plagues even affect us is our continuous habit of being little shits.

Oh vey!

"...Old Scroogemacher was as sour as a pickle and had a tongue like horseradish. He was a tyrant to the poor workers in his waistcoat factory, and even on the last night of Hanukkah, he had the nerve to set the clocks back. What a shtunk. When his nephew Moshe protests, Scroogemacher laughs. "Hanukkah, shmanukah," he says. "It's just another night to me."Oy vey iz mir, was he wrong!:

See, I'm pretty damn sure hurricanes affect us because of the 90mph winds and crap.

It also ignores birth defects. You get punished before you're even born?

They should do an animated adaption of that book, because we need more Hanukkah specials that don't feature Adam Sandler. The lesson of Christmas Carol does translate well to Hannukkah in my opinion.

edited 13th Dec '17 5:02:28 PM by firewriter

Yeah, that's called Victim-Blaming and it's not a good thing.

Yeah, it sounds awfully similar to the "natural disasters are due to gay marriage!" crap. And yes, that's actually something certain homophobes in the USA believe.

Assuming of course humans are not part of the same Natural Evil. The refusal to understand that we don't get special treatment.

Also parasitic wasps are amazing.

edited 13th Dec '17 11:49:53 PM by TerminusEst

If you want a real example of how cruel nature is, just look at the cuckoo. Brood parasitism is some creepy shit.

And yet, at least in the US, those natural disasters tend to hit the conservative regions harder than those gay loving granola eating god denying city liberal folk

Or a sea cucumber, a useless sack of meat that is preyed by a fish that buries deep into its ass to eat its ever regenerating guts.

edited 14th Dec '17 3:29:05 AM by AngelusNox

Case in point: Tony Perkins, the head of the rabidly anti-gay Family Research Council.

St. Augustine lived in a different time. Plus the whole Roman Catholic faith is built on not just victim blaming but Sins of the Fathers. You didn't even do anything and you're already a shithead because somebody else was a shithead long before you were born.

I'm all down for theories of human nature that have us as inherently defiled or very flawed (it's hard to think anything else if you know history) but there isn't usually a Hell involved in that equation ie. you burn forever because of something beyond your control. That's the problem for me.

The Augustinian theory is much more based on Sins of Our Fathers than Victim Blaming. Augustus doesn't state hurricanes hit gay people, he says the reason hurricanes as a broad concept affect mankind all over the world is the result of our refusal of God's grace and Original Sin.

For what is worth, I'm a believer of the Irenaean Theory, not the Augustinian one.

edited 14th Dec '17 4:35:12 AM by Gaon

Isn't that worse? We get shit on coz someone did shit before we were even born.