The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Twitter Floods Millionaire-Megachurch Owner's Inbox Over Harvey Victims

Truly a follower of Jesus. The really offensive part is how vacuous his self-justifications are.

Do any of you know any genuine, noble preachers whom you like to follow and look up to?

edited 30th Aug '17 4:21:58 AM by TheHandle

NVM

edited 30th Aug '17 3:12:19 AM by M84

Pope Francis?

Generally, a religious figure doesn't become a multimillionaire without doing things that run very much counter to the spirit of their religion.

Not if you believe in the prosperity gospel...

edited 30th Aug '17 7:20:20 AM by TerminusEst

I find his preaching style a bit too fluffy (I remember once reading a sermon he made about the Immaculate Conception where he said a lot of nice things but completely failed to mention what the IC was), but morally I have nothing but praise for him.

Not necessarily, depending on exactly what they do with that money. Although having it in their own name rather than pouring/pledging it into a charitable foundation or trust or even corporation is indeed quite sketchy. Spiritually, being personally rich, as opposed to having command over a lot of money, seems like nothing but trouble.

I really am amazed at the behavior of people who should be highly aware of the immortality of their souls and yet fail to prioritize their life choices accordingly. I keep invoking Occam's Razor and assuming bad faith (pun unintended), stupidity (thoughtlessness, ignorance, sloth of the mind?), or weakness of character (lack of predestined grace?) as the simplest explanation, but it seems like there's more to it than that.

Those are truly vile heretics. The prosperity gospel is about as anti-Jesus as it gets.

edited 30th Aug '17 7:26:09 AM by TheHandle

Aren't megachurches usually associated with consumerism?

Not necessarily. The way I heard it, for example, Rick Warren's megachurch was the result of the pastor spending enormous amounts of time with his community and making sure that all the extracurricular religious activities were more appealing, efficient, and habit-forming. He actually genuinely improved the quality of his service and how many people he could help, that way. From his Wikipedia page, he's your standard anti-gay-marriage, pro-life, anti-euthanisia evangelical, but with otherwise a straightforward interest in charity and education, and vocally defended religious freedom for all religions, not just Christianity.

So, you know, not someone I'd look up to, but seems to have integrity, and is forward-thinking on the logistic/organizational part of his job as a shepherd, which isn't the same as consumerism.

I have a great deal of admiration for James Martin, the author of several books on Jesuit practices. Also Akan Watts, a Budhist writer.

I'm quite fond of Charles Chaput (Archbishop of Philly). What sermons of his I've seen are a good combo of the intellectual, pastoral, and exhortatory. Tough + charitable + smart.

While I can't name any big names I've often have a good relationship with my local vicars, that's because they've often preached things I agree with and have found very needed as a message in a small English village.

We've had sermons that highlight the dangers of taking the bible literally, that talked about the evils of income inequality, about how Jesus believed in treating women equally even if they were on their period or worked in the sex trade.

The best line however was always when our original vicar met my mother, they'd just met and were working on the parish newsletter, my vicar said to my mum "my ex husband is getting remarried today", this was a bit awkward so my mum just went "it's a nice day for it", to which the vicar replied, "yeah, prayer doesn't always work".

The local ones tend to be okay. It's the super-rich multimillionaires with private jets that one should avoid.

I think I mentioned to you once Father James Thorbly, the missionary working with small landowners against Mega Corps. A Scottish Hot-Blooded madman with a deep hatred for the bourgeoisie. I saw him preaching whilst doing the documentary on him, and he was quite fiery about the fate of the vultures of the high classes preying upon the weak.

Granted, I will reiterate my personal relationship with the man soured after he started disrespecting my profession of filmmaker, but I will go to my grave saying the man remains a A-grade hero and an excellent Preacher.

In a sidenote, I actually like Francis's preaching style. Like, I personally preferred John Paul II's more BOMBASTIC sermons, but I like Francis's fluffier and more mellow approach too. Eases you into it.

Good call on the respective Popes' styles. Having a weakness for the cerebral, I preferred Benedict XVI to either ... but I'm sure JP2 and Francis reached wider audiences with their words.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:47:21 AM by Jhimmibhob

X3 Are millionaire preachers much of a thing outside of the US? I can't think of ever hearing about them outside of the US, I mean I guess you get bishops who embezzle stuff, but that's different.

I haven't heard of any, but I'd be extraordinarily surprised if it was a problem specific to the US.

If I'm not mistaken, South Korea has a few notorious examples. I also seem to remember reading about some mega-preachers in the Philippines.

Pretty common in several African countries that said megachurches have sunk their claws into. Hell, I once remember seeing a Ugandan(iirc) newspaper ad dispensing with the religious trappings and going right to the meat of it, talking about what easy, great, nontaxable money it was if you're charismatic enough to convince your congregation to keep on tithing every week. Said article was stamped with the approval of one of the Assembly of God's missionary offices.

edited 30th Aug '17 1:41:58 PM by carbon-mantis

Brazil also has a massive problem with these trillionaire pastors influencing politics and society with ultra-hardline fundamentalist views and essentially running massive embezzling schemes.

@Jhim: Benedicte was fine for what he was, but I felt he lacked the warmth of Francis or the sheer burning charisma of JP II. In general, lack of charisma was Benedicte's central problem.

Charismatic is exactly the right word.

I feel a contributing factor to Benedict's lack of perceived warmth may have been due to how he was the spitting image of Emperor Palpatine.

From what I remember from articles and interviews from the time of the (still ongoing?) abuse scandal, he was never actually supposed to be Pope, but ended up as a compromise candidate. He had theology, but little else and performed badly under pressure.

edited 31st Aug '17 1:36:46 AM by TerminusEst

Yes, the abuse scandals were part of it, especially since he was directly involved from his time as Archbishop of... I think it was Munich. He was actually undergoing a criminal investigation in Germany at the time of his election is I recall (though the investigation was only made public some time later). It left a very bad taste in many people's mouths.

What are the views of Jewish members on Messianic Jews?

Recently, Israel decided Messianic Jews could not have Jewish marriages. http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Rabbinical-court-rules-against-Jewish-marriage-rites-for-Messianic-Jews-503839

The response from some of the Jewish people I know was...surprisingly vehement. One of them I know to be a pretty Left-leaning fellow but he was all for this because Messianic Jews are out there trying to corrupt proper Jewish people.

I have done at least a little bit of reading on a bunch of different religions and that includes Messianic Judaism. They're an interesting group given they have no Pope or central authority to dictate what they believe. As such, I saw some that embraced the Trinity, others that rejected it, even one group that really didn't like Paul because they were like "who gave Paul any authority he wasn't even a real Apostle."

I guess I'm lucky in that I am not really part of any religion so I don't feel slighted in any way by "pretenders" like how Muslims dislike Ahmadiyya or how more conventional dogma Jews dislike Messianic Jews.

"Messianic Jews" are an extremely mixed bag. They're not a formal organization, so anyone who wants to adopt that moniker may do so, for good or for ill.

Part of the whole perplexed issue comes from the simple fact that "Jewish" can be both an ethnic label and a religious descriptor. For the most part—important caveat, that—Messianic Jews are ethnic Jews who have adopted Christianity (usually of a more/less Evangelical sort), but who prefer to celebrate their ethnic Jewishness in many details of worship, language, and cultural approach. In this, they're not much different from ethnic Christian sects like Ukrainian Catholics, Armenian Orthodox, or Maronites.

Problem is, when you say "Jewish," the word carries the implication of Judaism right along with its ethnic signifiers. A lot of people, Jewish and otherwise, argue that the notion of a "Jewish Christian" is a contradiction in terms (even though I've never seen someone argue the same thing about "Jewish atheist"). So the idea of a Christian sect that is overtly, ethnically Jewish strikes some folks as confusing, or as an outright muddying of the waters.

Making matters even more loaded, Messianics tend to evangelize their fellow ethnic Jews who follow Judaism. That's understandable, given their theology, but it's also understandable if the latter chafe at the notion of proclaimed fellow Jews trying to convert them to Christ. It makes relations very strained, and it brings on a lot of resentments and accusations—some fair, some less so. Also, I'm sure there are a handful of theologically outré MJs out there who give detractors plenty of ammo.

So basically: MJs are a real thing, and not inherently unrespectable ... but their very nature aggravates certain (justifiable) historic fears & resentments among the Jewish community. So I'm not surprised that they're a magnet for controversy in Israel, whether 100% fairly or not.

edited 12th Sep '17 11:22:30 AM by Jhimmibhob