Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

So this is the "The work doesn't contribute to the problematic trend because I like it" defense?

I am saying that this is getting nitpicky about a vamp, when in context it's not bigoted to use it.

The Vamp is a inherently bigoted trope, You can use it if you put enough nuance with the female representation, If you have The Vamp AND you have genuinely capable woman that arent evil (or sexually shy, not because being sexually shy is bad, but because it associate sex and/or relationships with evil) , the story is not bigoted.

Basically, everything can work. I could use the worse, more orientalist, straight up from the XIX century Yellow Peril Oriental Despot ever, but if the story had a good representation of his culture (for example, having a Yellow Peril Chinese overlord while having several actually nuanced chineses, or having a Religious fanatical Middle easterner while showing that the people of the zone are as rational as everyone else) then the story is not bigoted.

Tropes Are Tools, remember that.

Considering they have a auction for their rich friends to use is it established she is the only one bringing in people or just the one we see since she is the one that gets the most attention out of the family in regards to plot.

Everyone in the family seemed to have a role in this operation and well someone has to lure the victims in and since they need males and females I don't think she was getting all the females since there was only one female picture shown in her collection of past relationships.

So let's talk James Bond. More specifically, Quantum of Solace.

Now, the 007 franchise has a known history using the women in refrigerators tropes. The Craig Era did this as well but did use a sort of twist on it. When Strawberry Fields is killed by the villains, M chews Bond out for his disregard for the women he sleeps with and tendency to get them killed.

Now it is nice that the movie is somewhat aware of this problem but they did still play the trope straight. Not to mention, M didn't see a problem with sending a woman, who by M's own admission, wasn't even a field agent to retrieve Bond?

Skyfall also hurls that through a window when Bond "seduces" a traumatized Sex Slave.

Even Daniel Craig has admitted what a bastard Bond is.

edited 27th Jan '18 6:40:25 AM by windleopard

And Craig!Bond has nothing on Connery!Bond, who I'm pretty sure committed out and out sexual assault on a few occasions.

Craig!Bond is possibly guilty of rape if you look at the circumstances which involve Questionable Consent (in the aforementioned relation with the traumatized Sex Slave in which he essentially surprises her while she's taking a shower). Connery!Bond is clear-cut guilty of actual rape when he pretty much forces Pussy Galore into having sex with him in Goldfinger.

I don't remember the other Bonds as clearly but I think Lazenby (since he only had a single film), Dalton and Brosnan are the least bad Bonds. Moore, Connery and Craig are tough ones to sell.

This sounds about right to me. I remember watching one of Dalton's films as a kid (not sure which one) and reacting to how much less asshole-ish he seemed compared to other Bonds. It's been a while since then though.

Brosnan bond was mostly a Handsome Lech more than anything and in Golden Eye and Tomorrow Never Dies his lecherous ways were used against him.

I don't recall any instances in Brosnan's Bond being forceful, being a bit callous sure.

If I am remembering correctly in Tomorrow Never Dies he was told by M to use any means to get information out of Paris Carver. Which resulted in her death.

edited 27th Jan '18 12:27:47 PM by Darthwyn

Speaking of Bond and lechery, I heard on Super Bunny Hop MGS 3 about Bond has to 'correct' the women in his films and how often the women are often disposable in Bond films.

So there's been some interest on the net in the next Bond being a woman. Some argue that this would be great diversity given what an icon Bond is. Others argue that being a privileged male is central to Bond's character and that a female (or even poc) might be troubling given much of Bond's stories are pitting him against women and foreigners.

My opinion on that has always been that Bond is so heavily defined by being a male power fantasy that by changing him to a woman you are fundamentally altering who the character is in such a big way that he might well not be the same character anymore. Which isn't necessarily super bad or anything but at that point why not just make a new character?

I would however support his sexuality being changed or a transman Bond.

edited 1st Feb '18 6:32:09 AM by Draghinazzo

I more or less agree with Drag. Atomic Blonde, if anything, showed you could do a pretty great female super spy flick on its own (though Atomic Blonde leans much closer to being a female, actionized version of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy going by the sheer amount of subterfuge going on and the extremely cynic perspective of politics and espionage)

I think that it can be bad, because as you said, is changing the character to a level that he is not recognizable anymore.

There's an argument to be made that Bond should be evolved as a character, because what was acceptable back in the day might not be kosher today. Bond was originally conceived as a white male power fantasy, but that's an appeal to tradition.

Art evolves constantly. New takes on characters emerge. Classic characters are reimagined with new themes and characteristics to support new ideas. Stories change to suit the times they're told in.

Iron Man, for instance, was conceived as a self-imposed challenge. Stan Lee wanted to make a conservative superhero. The idea was basically, "What if someone like Donald Trump or Rupert Murdoch was a superhero?" But by the time his first film rolled out, Iron Man was a literary device used as an indictment of the military-industrial complex.

Look at basically any Disney movie ever. They take classic faerie tales and adapt their ideas to create a modern morality tale for children.

As society evolves, art changes with it. And yet here we have the one change that always receives the most pushback: diversity. Whenever a character is made to be a female or a minority, it's always a controversy.

Why is it, exactly, that being white and male is such a sacred and untouchable part of a power fantasy?

edited 1st Feb '18 7:46:10 AM by TobiasDrake

Even if I'm not much of a James Bond fan, I say go for it if they want to make Bond a woman. Get a competent director and let's see what kind of story we get.

Besides, most of the actors haven't really been true to Bond anyway. Bond is supposed to be a posh Englishman. Has he ever been played by a posh Englishman? His first actor Sean Connery was a Scotsman. And Pierce Brosnan was Irish. Oh, and George Lazenby was an Aussie.

edited 1st Feb '18 7:53:37 AM by M84

On one hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a female version. On the other hand, I would probably not see it as the same character, or at leat not to the same extent I see the current different versions. If made into a different ethnicity, I don't think it would change, however. That's like black Heimdall (then again, I don't care about him because it's not the mythological character, but the comic book character).

edited 1st Feb '18 8:10:52 AM by AnotherDuck

On the topic of Bond I could be wrong (I'm not especially knowledgeable about the series) but isn't the entire point that he isn't a nice guy? He's a government trained killer and as such doesn't it make sense that he doesn't behave in a nice manner?

He's not a nice person in the way that Batman might not be a nice person. He's not "nice" but damn is he just the coolest ever badass who you want to be.

(as an archetype, personally I'm indifferent)

edited 1st Feb '18 8:13:35 AM by MrAHR

I agree with your general point, but the argument being made was more about Bond's maleness than his whiteness. I forgot to mention it, but I would support a nonwhite Bond as well.

I actually support a non white Bond, but not really a female one.