Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

"Cersei was doomed to fail because she was never given the support or education to be a good ruler because she was a female. Had she been male, it would have been different."

Like Robert,Roose,Frey,Balon....

All of them where noble and have the same education as her and yet come as even more depraved or flawed, cersei fall because she belive to much in her own power.

"Cersei is not a real person but she is an example of what happens when you treat a woman as a walking incubator then say because of her lastname she is better than everyone else."

And her flaws come not by the first thing but the other one: Cersei belive the power of her family as something granted, even ignoring all fight Tyrion and Twynn have to do, is not only she dosent know, she reject to know

Also, why she would be that diferetn from being male? for all we know she maybe would be a blone version of Ramsey, dosent it?

And for last, If somewhat deserve some understanding of where he came is jofrey, where a number or factor make him the little psychopath everyone love to hate, but it seen people wants to just hate him(not that I can blame them for that)

Robert, Roose, Walder and Balon don't have the same education as Cersei at all, nor do they even all have the same cultural upbringing as each other.

I think unknowing meant they weren't educated how to be a good ruler, which is true. The problem is, they were taught how to be a ruler, while Cersei didn't get even that. And you could make different arguments for each one of them, because they are wildly different rulers.

What I said that everyone of them have the prvilage Cersei lack as a women and yet neither of them is a very good ruler because their personal shortcomings: Frey is petty,Robert violent and not to responsable and Roose is a sociopath but only with Cersei sudenly her flaws become fault of her sociaty, whihc is quite weird if you ask me

I don't hate Cersei. I don't hate her in the books and I don't hate her in the show.

I find her fascinating. She's insane, hypocritical, myopic to the point of cosmic ignorance, but she's also struggling and proactive, just like the "protagonists". She faces challenges just like the "good guys" do, she has her own obstacles, adverseties, and flaws. That separates her from characters like Ramsay "I Am God" Bolton, whom I just find boring.

I feel even if Ramsay gets defeated, no amount of karmic spectacle his death gets will ever quell the amont of shit he gets to get away with. Especially in the show. By the Gods, what a mary sue show Ramsay is.

But Cersei almost never wins. Her flaws make her plots crumble, people she thinks are her puppets turn away from her, she gets imprisoned and humiliated in front of the whole city. But she still keeps going, with nothing but her iron fucking will. And that to me builds her credibility as a villain more than token success after token success. This is someone whose ultimate defeat I will enjoy seeing, because it will be the defeat of someone who has already gazed into the eyes of it and is yet to blink.

TLDR: Cersei has a monster case of Villainous Valor and I find it inspiring.

That and her POV chapters are the only thing about books 4 and 5 I enjoyed. Her inner world is written in a beautifully toxic manner.

Also I am not sorry for cheering her on in her battle against the Faith Militant. Fuck them.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:17:37 AM by Luminosity

There are a variety of ways to become a shitty person, and not all of them have to rely on some kind of Freudian Excuse. And to put it bluntly, you can't ascribe the shittiness of the characters in question to societal oppression, because they're not members of oppressed groups.

You could argue that Balon's shittiness as a ruler is a problem with society, in that he comes from a culture in which a good leader must be a suicidal raging idiot.

A male character oppressed because of gender expectations could not be a character similar to Cersei, because he'd be oppressed by completely different societal expectations. And arguably, the series does have male characters who get the short end of the stick due to their sex — Samwell Tarly, and maybe to a lesser extent Quentyn Martell, are not very comfortable with who they have to be because of societal expectations, and have each paid for it in different ways.

"There are a variety of ways to become a shitty person, and not all of them have to rely on some kind of Freudian Excuse"

But thing is, only Cersei is the one with a freudian excuse being use, also that true dosent forgive what they done, only explain part of their evil.

" you can't ascribe the shittiness of the characters in question to societal oppression, because they're not members of oppressed groups."

Its not about opresion, is that their falirue come from them as a chararter and how much they put themselves while Cersei Flaws just come fron sociaty, consider how monstrous ego she have it feel like validating her issues with power.

Balon is more about cultural practice use to excuse whatever shitiy behivor, he is a reactionary, wating to return to the old pratice, he is much of a social comentary as a chararter(well...kind of, nobody care about him)

Yep, yep, yep. I just barely skimmed through the last page or so, but this is something I've been trying to get across both academically and in personal conversations about character designs. We need to keep track of the difference between enjoying a character for the way they are written and enjoying a character for their actual morals. While I understand the expression "I hate X" in the basic informal sense, I take issue with the expression when identifying structural qualities of fiction. The ambiguity between hating a character on a moral dimension and hating a character on a qualitative dimension punctuates how easy it is to get emotionally invested in fiction.

edited 30th Aug '15 12:03:27 PM by Aprilla

Villains might be rapists, mass murderers or petty, self-centered thugs, but as long as they can get away with it and look stylish while doing it, they'll have their fans. Their justifications for any sins they might commit are just window dressing; it's in-world competency that makes you want to root for them.

On the flip side, a hopelessly incompetent character ordinarily gains support by being an everyman or a woobie - by making us sympathize with them because they're so pathetic. But Cersei's other character traits (deliberately?) block off that route of sympathy.

Aside from her ruthlessness (which is necessary in the Go T universe), Cercei's major flaw is her paranoia, on which she believes that anyone not under her thumb is actively plotting against her and thus she needs to take them out. It usually ends becoming a Selffulfilling Prophecy or she is absolutely right but the means she uses end up backfiring on her, like letting the Sparrows gain more power and influence so she could let them lose on the Tyrells but not considering they aren't the type of people who can be bought with gold or titles.

For one like Margery and Ollena Tyrell, Cercei also uses her womanhood to seduce and feign innocence which makes a driving point that for women in Go Ts need to play all their cards properly if they want to further their goals. Which makes me like the characters instead of disliking them.

Cercei isn't even evil, but her arrogance and paranoia make her take some very stupid decision or at least be blind to the consequence of her actions, but at least she tried to put a leash on Joffrey and prevent the Westerosi civil war with the North, but sadly she failed hard at it.

Pretty much. And what my complaint is with Cersei (and I think a fair amount of female villains) is the decision to write them as irrational/"bitchy" and incompetent. Which you don't really see with male villains- I mean there are some incompetent male villains, but they are usually of the Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain type, as opposed to both incompetent and super-evil.

It bothers me because it feels like Cersei and other female characters of this ilk are written to reinforce the stereotype of women being unsuited for leadership. And as a corollary, their evilness is tied to their gender in a way male villains (except for the Straw Misogynist type) generally isn't.

In general, I'd just like to see more female characters (whether villains or heroes) who are highly intelligent and competent leaders. I mean I certainly like reading about male non-action guys who win through smarts rather than physical prowess, but I kind of wonder where the female Tyrion or Samwell Tarly (or Hiccup or Miles Vorkosigan) is.

Edit- Incidentally, I can get more into it if anyone's interested, but after having some issues with the gender roles of the second book in Joe Abercrombie's Shattered Sea series, I really liked the things he did in the third book- including having a Guile Hero female leader and in the twist with the male Guile Hero of the first book.

edited 30th Aug '15 12:44:53 PM by Hodor2

Wouldn't what's his name the coward at the Wall who hid during the siege, count as an incompetent male villain who nobody liked?

Also I don't see why Cersi is being taken to be meant as representative of all women, it's not like she's the only female character around, that's the nice thing about Go T, it has lots of female characters, as such no one character needs to be taken as representative of all women.

Joffrey.

No one likes Joffrey, and he is not the most competent person.

Oh, what about Viserys?

Or him.

Walder "How In The Name Of The Seven Did You Reach Ninety?" Frey.

I wouldn't call Walder Frey incompetent, actually. Despicable, yes, but he seems to generally know what he's doing.

... Yeah. How many Great Families not caring about seeing the Freys burn is it again, now?

Do you think he even cares what happens to his family? He's at the end of his life, and seems to mostly care about his own gratification, and avenging slights to his own person.

You could possibly consider Balon as another male villain who's both incompetent and unlikeable, though we don't see enough of him for him to be a particularly memorable presence either way.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:15:07 PM by DrDougsh

The issue is cost-benefit and nash equilibrium, everyone who hates walder has more to lose than gain from attacking the twins, only if all the people who hate the freys could muster enough common knowledge to realize that they too have allies against them can they actually attack him.

Seen Black Lagoon? Balalaika is the most terrifying mastermind there.

Hotel Moscow in general is pretty fucking scary.

I have. Actually, I was reminded of that when reading the last Shattered Sea in a scene where an elderly nun (well, sort of a Maester type) starts mowing people down with a BFG.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:39:46 PM by Hodor2

Frey is about all things petty, he did the red wedding breaking one of the more important rules and is more like "I WIN, I FUCKING WIN AND YOU LOSE, SUCKERS!!!" is like that boy who cheat for win but dosent care at all.

Balon is about cultural posting, he wants the old way when men can rape and kill as they see fit, even when he dies Victarion and Euron pick his causes...kind of.

"justifications for any sins they might commit are just window dressing; it's in-world competency that makes you want to root for them."

Pretty much, in fac draco in latther pants is atempt who reduce the evilness of the villian but having their good-looking or charming aparience.

But about female villians....I admit that I just want a Female villian who is what it is, with not freudian excuses or some backtracking about how damage they are in the end, the only time I remenber a female villian who is hate is Dolore umbrige, everything else is "she is horrible...but here is why" ughhh

Mags Bennett of Justified's second season would be an excellent example of a female villain who doesn't Heel–Face Turn, is absolutely in control of her own operations, and is thoroughly, even frighteningly, competent. Throw in the fact that she's played by a heavyset older woman (a demographic that, acting wise, is usually relegated to wacky comic relief) and you've got one of my favourite television villains ever. We need more like her.

On the subject of thoroughly evil female bad guys who you can just hate, I know I've mentioned her before in this thread somewhere, but Tsarmina from Mossflower was one of my favourite fantasy villains growing up and remains one for precisely those reasons. Again, wish there were more of them.