Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Especially when she can outperform most of them. Slaying TWO kingsguard alone? DAMN GIRL!

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

I mostly agree and very much like Brienne, although I think as with Arya and Asha, it's interesting how there's more support for women "fighting the system" when they want to do traditionally male activities (although I think Martin is better about this than the show).

Brienne is an example of what I was getting at with the Reactionary Fantasy thing- It's like in one sense it is more "realistic" to have her be constantly shunned, but I'm not sure I like the message that women can never succeed.

Brienne is a lot more of a badass in the show than in the books. While I kind of like her more sensitive personality of the books, I like how skilled she is. While I sort of understand the objection to her beating Sandor, I find it "funny" how a lot (invariably male) book readers go the opposite extreme and insist that Brienne is one of the worst fighters in the series- Because the best female "has" to be worse than the worst male.

edited 27th Aug '15 8:02:50 PM by Hodor2

But she has succeeded. She is one of the BEST fighters in Westeros. Sure she gets a lot of shit for it, but she has it where it matters. Pod says as much to her face. I don't care that you can't knight someone. You're the best fighter I've ever met.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Semi-ninaing myself, but the idea that she is one of the best fighters is somewhat show only. On one hand, it makes sense since she has no combat experience in the books, just a lot of sword training (the show version seems to have implied combat experience). I would rank her pretty highly though given the combination of technical skill and physical strength.

In the books, she has a somewhat more difficult time fighting Jaime and doesn't fight Sandor- and I can agree she'd be unlikely to beat him in the books (even if sick/injured) given that he has tons of combat experience.

Edit- FWIW, in the books she doesn't kill those members of Renly's Guard, Loras does- Although not sure that is any great feat because in either case, they weren't expecting to be killed by one of their fellow guards.

edited 27th Aug '15 8:08:16 PM by Hodor2

"No, I'm not. Environmental influence and personal responsibility are often part of the same feedback mechanism, and one does not necessarily negate the other."

yeah but you are streching that a little bit into making your point, Robert was vice-driven chararter and he didnt change that even after being a king, both Cat and Lysa have the same upbringing and yet one stay loyal to Ned and the other become a pawn of Littlefinger.

"but there really isn't anyone you can point to as a counterexample of "good female leader".

Well, there isnt any good leader...period, Robert indulge himself,Twynn rules by fear,Robb is good with sword, not crowns,Euron dosent care a shit about his people,Stannis is stouborn as hell and Joffrey...I really have to said it?

George have put almost every type of leader and so far none of them have meet with sucess.

"Cersei kind of stands out because several male villainous characters (i.e. Jaime, Tyrion, Stannis, Sandor) are all Not Evil, Just Misunderstood."

And yet their own flaws put them in their path: Jaime was apathic until the point Brienne have to beat sense out of him, Tyrion bitterness and incapacity to stand mockery drove him as much his father threatmen(which it was what drove his life into a crappy end) even with their enviorment their own personality cause more problems and chaos.

Also they are anti-heroe or jerk at best(except Tyrion who is decending into villany) cersei is one of the "bad" chararter like roose or Euron, just...she is incompetent at it.

edited 27th Aug '15 8:11:35 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Not to move the goalposts, but isn't it interesting that the male villains are (well, except for Ramsay or anyone from Essos) invariably highly intelligent/clever and embody Evil Is Cool, whereas the female villain is an incompetent Smug Snake?

I don't think you're understanding me. I know I'm having difficulty understanding you. That's for sure. Namely, you're misreading what I'm trying to get across about the mutability and interchangeability of people who are fictitious products of a single human being with his own creative and ideological pursuits. This is confounded by television adaptations, which often involve multiple writers from episode to episode.

@"Badass Women": On the one hand, physical use of force is a reasonable shorthand for character aptitude, especially in the case of women. On the other hand, the show is illustrating how that very same violence should not be an immediate cause for celebration. This echoes the issues that arise when a distinction isn't quite made between a strong female character and a strong female character (one being a violent and physically adept person who happens to be a woman and one being a multi-dimensional person with plausible strengths, weaknesses and goals)

Arya and Daenerys are great characters, but from what I've seen as of completing Season 5, they've engaged in some highly questionable actions that involve the use of deadly force. Again, this was likely intentional on the writers' part, and Martin seems to have signed off on it. Sometimes the violence is out of necessity, especially as a response to gendered violence (i.e. sexual assault) while other times that violence is a reflection of possible moral faults in the woman committing that violence. I can sympathize with Ygritte's acts of violence more than I can with Dany's. The former is operating out of a sense of existential fear for her people, and the latter arguably is, too. However, Daenerys makes political ploys that really turn into a mess with a body count that could have been totally avoided.

Part of writing a well-developed female character is showing ones that screw up, and I understand the nervousness people can have about the implications of that approach. It's a perfectly valid concern.

edited 27th Aug '15 8:31:28 PM by Aprilla

Well Euron is not that cool, he is just a psychopath with soft talk, I think Martin have to stick with grey chararter because outside the montain, every "evil" chararter is quite over the top.

And....yeah, the problem with Cersei is that is incompetent at being evil, she is not pitable but not enought to be disgust or impress by what she does, just...there.

"I can sympathize with Ygritte's acts of violence more than I can with Dany's. The former is operating out of a sense of existential fear for her people"

Ygritte also operate of a culture of "strongest person is the leader" who can war against themselves, while is about necesity her worldview is also quite ruthless and cutthorat, there is the issue about how Jon want to kept his chasty vows but she was having none of that.

Also something george kept using is how context can mean anything, in other fantasy series Arya will be a action hero because she manage to kill one of montain mooks stab him many times, but after that is cleary a disturbing scene because she just stab a person many times, the same thing happen to much in assasin games where writer use context in order to root for the protagonist(like Taken: yeah he maybe do shady things in the past when you are using against sexual slaver it dosent matter one bit) in this case I feel you are using the system to as the creation of Dany(which is posible) and Cersei(which is not) flaws.

edited 27th Aug '15 8:38:26 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Cersei is out-Smug Snaked, though. Freys. Even at her most blinkered and drunk, she's more competent than the vast majority of that family. Without even breathing hard.

And, she's arguably not the worst mother in the series. Lysa Arryn is strong competition.

edited 27th Aug '15 9:55:09 PM by Euodiachloris

That's largely because there's no one in ASOIAF that's a good leader. For characters in leadership roles, there are a) competent (actually good at the job), b) realist (instead of being painfully naive and/or Honor Before Reason), and c) actually a decent human being (instead of a ruthlessly cutthroat pragmatist and/or mustachio-twirlingly evil). Pick two of the three... if you're lucky. (If you're not lucky, you get one. Or zero.)

That's not what I got out of Cerci's character arc at all. She's not inferior to her male counterparts. She's basically a female version of Robert — she sleeps around, drinks too much, has a far higher opinion of herself than is supported by fact, and gets irrationally furious when reality fails to live up to her expectations. The main difference is that Robert was a warrior who tried to solve his problems with violence, while Cerci was a politician who used political force instead of physical force.

Not really? I've only read the books (haven't seen the show at all) and I'd agree that Brienne is one of the best fighters in the series. Probably not the best, but definitely one of the top five. Probably top three, since Jamie, both Cleganes, and Oberyn are all out of the running. About her only competition for the title is Barristan Selmy and Loras Tyrell (if he recovers from the horrific injuries he reportedly took).

I'd say that both Ygritte and Brienne count as both — both are legitimate Action Girls who also have fleshed-out personalities, backstories, and motivations. Arya is an arguable case, especially in that her character development has nothing to do with her gender (you could make her a boy and her story would still work — not true of Ygritte or Brienne). Other characters qualify for one or the other, but those are the only ones I can think of that are both.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

How to write the best webcomic EVAR.

(It's a tongue-in-cheek thing making fun of Strictly Formula storytelling, including pokes at gender roles.)

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

I have to say I agree with Native Jovian. I think it's interesting to see book Cersei as a female counterpart to Robert. They share many flaws (from an in and out of story perspective): bad holding power, selfish using it, they drink too much, their only children are with anyone else but each other, etc. However Robert had a male Westerosi upbringing: he was expected to be a leader (well, even though for his House there was Stannis) and a warrior. Cersei, on the other hand, was expected to marry such a leader, and at most influence that person to increase her House's power. If I remember well, as a child sometimes Cersei even pretended to be her brother and snuck in his sword training class.

As Jovian, I've only read the books.

@Native Jovian: Hmmm... why do you say Ygritte had to be a girl or otherwise the story wouldn't work?

The fact that Cersei is getting more and more drunk as time pass is a sign she is picking something from Robert.

Problem is, Robert is present as someone good that should never hold the crown and who worst excess come from it while also having some self awarness of what happen to him while Cersei is a bitter person who resent the fact she couldnt get away with it and still dont get anything.

In other worlds: Robert gain sympathic, even if you dont agree with him, Cersei?...not so much

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

The degree to which Robert is sympathetic is a YMMV issue. He did want Dany and Viserys killed as two kids. At most, what makes him sympathetic is that he never wanted to be king. I don't think he ever claimed to be a great king.

Meanwhile, you could find Cersei sympathetic because for her whole life her father has been using her as means to increase his own power. So, again, YMMV.

By that point, Robert was pretty much drunk(pun intended) with his vengance and even after he admit to Ned that was wrong.

With Cersei, there are moment when is clear she is totally gulty like how she was the one who start the incest with Jaime, even more clear how she dosent love him the same way as him, while she have suffer under Twynn she dosent hold so much of a grunge against him but instead trying to surprass him(yeah...)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

The difference between Robert and Cersei is that Robert knows what his faults are, and seeks out people like Ned who can offer him guidance. Meanwhile, Cersei has plenty of people offer her guidance, but routinely ignores their advice and only seems interested in hearing the opinions of toadying yes-men.

Jon spares her because he can't bring himself to kill a woman, and then their relationship is what allows him to establish himself among the wildlings. Their relationship is also a source of dramatic tension because of the Watch's "father no children" vows. Even ignoring the Incompatible Orientation issue, if her part was recast as male, 1) Jon would've just killed Dudegritte in their first encounter, and 2) even if he somehow didn't and they still became a couple, Jon wouldn't be subverting his vows because he's not "taking a wife" or at any risk of fathering children.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

To a certain extent, I take issue with the moral debate about whether Robert is better or worse than Cersei, let alone why they are bad. I'm not trying to take the piss out of anyone here, but it doesn't seem like a semantically useful point of discussion given what we already know about the characters.

Something else that comes up with disturbing frequency is how Cersei's misdeeds are the focal point of discussions about villainy in Game of Thrones. Whether this is outright misogyny is a matter of intense debate, but I find it off-putting that many people are primed on throwing Cersei under the bus while offering greater leniency to people like Stannis and Littlefinger. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but placing excessive attention on Cersei's moral shortcomings (and ignoring the cause of those shortcomings) is actually illustrating Martin's point about how horrible people are more often than not the by-products of horrible institutions.

Just as a weird contrast, we get two different paradigms:

Littlefinger - "I'm a bad person because I was mistreated."

Cersei - "I just woke up one day and decided to be a bitch."

Of course I'm using hyperbole, but that's the vibe I get in discussions about this in digital and physical space.

The infamous walk of shame scene (don't look it up unless you've already seen it) drives home that metatextual feature of tying villainy with misogyny. I'm very guarded about the people who say she had it coming, and why they say she had it coming. The rationalization mechanism is dangerous because it can happen to any woman, often regardless of the true weight of their faults. It's like slut shaming Ann Coulter, Margeret Thatcher or Ayn Rand. They may be deserving of criticism, but the gender-specific manner in which they are insulted is actually validating the issue of how we perceive women as inherently flawed beings. It's quite biblical, really.

edited 29th Aug '15 1:30:39 PM by Aprilla

I think part of it (and where I'm less likely to blame Martin) is that the characters themselves tend to hate Cersei more than others (and naturally use gender-based insults about her). I think similarly with the treacherous Freys, it's the combination of the character's misdeeds coupled with them having the most in-universe hatred.

I kind of understand it, but what I find troubling is how in both cases, it's like some fans really buy into the warped morality of the in-universe characters- like rooting for Cersei to be raped or cheering the Walk of Shame or in the case of the Freys, thinking it would be a good thing for someone to kill everyone of them, even children.

I think where I do blame Martin though is in the decision to have the character who experiences spousal abuse and marital rape be someone who "deserves it". I mean it's sort of "edgy" and an interesting choice, but it's like you already have the layer of Deliberate Values Dissonance. Why add this additional layer as "justification" for the abuser.

edited 29th Aug '15 1:43:11 PM by Hodor2

I don't think we're meant to believe Cersei deserved the walk of shame. In fact, I've heard some viewers who hate Cersei express something along the lines of "I wanted her to be beaten, but not like this."

edited 29th Aug '15 1:51:08 PM by DrDougsh

He gives us a range. Danaerys (and her mother; people often forget that Dany is very likely a rape-baby born from the infamous after effects of Aerys' "melting Starks below the Neck"), Jayne Poole, Craster's "wives", Catelyn-when-first-married... there's a long list. Not all of whom "deserve" it, even in readers' eyes. :/

Frankly, Cersei isn't "worse" than Robert; she's on a par with him. The problem is that we don't get his inadequacies shoved in our faces as much thanks to, you know, him being dead. If we could go back and get a blow-by-blow account of what dumb moves she, Tywin and Jon Arryn had to deal with before the series started, I don't think people would think too well of Robert, either. <_<

edited 29th Aug '15 2:02:33 PM by Euodiachloris

I wouldn't say Catelyn was the victim of rape. She wasn't super-happy about marrying Ned initially (well, at least in the books), but there's not really any indication of unconsensual sex- It was more like Lie Back and Think of England than Marital Rape License.

edited 29th Aug '15 1:56:31 PM by Hodor2

Yeah considering what Sansa just went though I'm not understanding the idea that only characters who "deserve it" are subject to domestic abuse and marital rape.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

At any rate, if Catelyn was "raped", you might as well say Ned was too — it was an arranged marriage that neither of them chose. Both of them saw it as their duty.

Well, that is show-specific for Sansa (while I don't agree with all the criticisms, I definitely prefer where she is right now in the books than in the show).