Does Not Illustrate: Bigger Bad

A picture was recently added to the Bigger Bad article depicting Darth Vader taking orders from Emperor Palpatine. However, Palpatine is not an example of the Bigger Bad, since he's very directly involved in the story, while the Bigger Bad is an evil person or presence more powerful than the Big Bad, but largely detached from the story. In other words, a depiction of The Dragon getting orders from the Big Bad has nothing to do with the trope. Besides, a very similar image and caption is already in use on The Dragon page.

CamelCase your topics, please.

Incidentally, Palpatine is on Big Bad already. He can't be both the Big Bad and the Bigger Bad, that wouldn't make any sense.

edited 2nd Nov '12 7:21:24 AM by ShadowHog

CamelCase? Even after reading the article, I'm still not sure what you're saying I didn't do.

CamelCaseIsWhenYouWriteOutPhrasesLikeThis. NoSpacesAndEveryWordStartsWithACapitalLetter.

When I posted that, the link was to "Main.Bigger Bad". The link should be to "BiggerBad" or "Main.BiggerBad" (I typically do the former; no need to do namespacing for Main, it's implied).

Somebody has already fixed it, though. (I didn't, although I frequently do.)

edited 2nd Nov '12 8:23:58 AM by ShadowHog

Ah- I get it now. Sorry!

+1 to pull for not being an example.

edited 2nd Nov '12 1:46:07 PM by Willbyr

Vader is The Dragon, not the Big Bad. That makes it not an example.

If A New Hope was the only Star Wars movie, that might fit. But it's not, and that doesn't.

Yeah, this does need to be pulled. Even if it were an example, I would vote against it because of how hard seeing Vader in the image is.

Same here. This image should be removed. But what image will we upload? The Bigger Bad of most media tend to be spoileriffic.

I don't think this trope is possible to picture without being lampshaded directly and clearly. It requires plot context, something that is very hard for an image to provide. You'd also have to include contradictory visual elements; the Bigger Bad has to look less important and more distant than the Big Bad, but also has to look more powerful. "Less important" and "more powerful" aren't easy to reconcile visually.

Definitely remove the Emperor picture, since even if we're counting the old trilogy only, the Emperor was the final villain that had to be defeated by the hero.

(As an aside, Bigger Bad is a really confusing name. It looks like it's supposed to be something like Sorting Algorithm of Evil. "Ok, you defeated the Big Bad, but here's the Bigger Bad.")

It shouldn't be spoilerific because the Bigger Bad is ancillary to the main plot and character conflict.

edited 3rd Nov '12 10:13:49 PM by Scardoll

I'm going to pull the pic as soon as the page comes unlocked. I'm fine with the page not having a pic.

EDIT: Done.

edited 3rd Nov '12 10:21:02 PM by Willbyr

What about a photo of Blofeld (sans face) with his white cat from one of the early James Bond films? The leader of a villainous organisation sitting at a desk stroking a white cat is a pretty well-known shorthand for Bigger Bad.

That sounds more like Big Bad or Orcus on His Throne to me. It would have to be distinct from Big Bad to actually show this trope.

edited 4th Nov '12 10:08:05 AM by videogmer314

I tend to think that this concept isn't really one suited for a picture, honestly. You'd need to establish three ideas- that the image depicts the most powerful evil person/force in the setting, that they're detached from the action of the story, and that there's some other villain or villains who does function as the primary antagonist of the story. I think that's a bit much to do in one image. About the name- when I launched the trope, I honestly wasn't that happy with it, but the one I would have preferred (Ultimate Evil) was already taken. I agree that the current versions sounds like it could mean the same thing as The Man Behind the Man, which is why I tried to stress the difference between the two in the original description.

Maybe something like this, but without the artifacting? And with permission form creator if required?

edited 20th Nov '12 9:28:40 AM by Rondomi

How does that illustrate the trope?

That looks like something else completely from this trope.

I said something like that. Look at the top left corner.

It's what someone else requested, saying that an image of the Bigger Bad should be "more powerful" and "less important or more distant" than the Big Bad. This game's story is finished when you beat the being you see being attacked (Dialga), and fighting the individual in the top left corner (Darkrai) is optional. It symbolizes a darker presence.

I never said you had to use this image, this just popped into my head when I was reading this discussion.

At first I thought that was from Pokemon Diamond And Pearl, where Dialga is nothing more than an Olympus Mon that Cyrus is trying to control. Now that I see Darkrai, though, it looks more like The Dragon to me.

And by the way, I could be wrong on this, but isn't that a spoiler?

Yes, it is. I wasn't really requesting this specific image, but this type of image where the Bigger Bad is distant, if you can find one that isn't really spoileriffic.

Dialga is under Darkrai's control or influence, I don't know the specific details, but, yes, Dialga may be The Dragon, but he's presented as the Big Bad, and the credits roll afterwards. Darkrai is the optional True Final Boss. Could be a case of The Man Behind the Man, but, like I said, the type of presentation Darkrai gets in that image could fit a Bigger Bad. I think, should we use this image or find a similar one where the Bigger Bad is more distant and less apparent, it could fit on this trope page.

If it relies that much on intimate knowledge of the work and a tiny easy to miss figure in the corner, then it's a bad, bad pic.

1. Never said it had to rely on knowledge.

2. Many images on this site would be "bad, bad" without captions.

3. Never said it specifically had to be a tiny figure in the corner. The Bigger Bad's eyes could make the entire background for a similar, but more apparent effect.

4. I warned you that Bigger Bads tended to be spoilerriffic.

edited 21st Nov '12 7:58:28 AM by Rondomi

Here's a question: What would a good image for this look like?

Are you asking me or nitrokitty?