"talking past each other" means that while we may comprehend each other's individual words, there's a disconnect where we don't actually grasp the other person's point.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, sorry. ^^; This is where my foreignness shows best. I can read English mostly well* but I can still make dumb mistakes such as this. I've noticed the phrase syntax seemed weird but failed to figure out why*.
Zzzzzzzzzz
You got tripped up by an idiom. That's no reflection on your English.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
NOT THE BEES
Not to mention actors have to adjust their tanning all the damn time to reflect whatever role they're in, and stage makeup is used all the damn time to adjust skin tone.
Surprise: skin color has been part of the costume all along. Because a costume is a person.
Cephalopod Lothario
That's pretty much all that needs to be said. That's what I've been taught, in all my drama/acting classes.
Face Time
Indeed. I remember the mask exercises.
(Not that most of us made anything remotely offensive. Most of us, anyways.)
edited 24th Aug '12 12:22:29 PM by RocketDude
"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel
...am I seriously the only person who looks at this debate and goes "I don't get why, but I trust your judgement enough to agree it is offensive"? There is hardly a deficit of white characters to cosplay as. It's hardly going to hurt you not to do it, and it's obviously going to hurt others if you do do it, so why would you?
He's the Doctor. He could be anywhere in time and space.
NOT THE BEES
I'm seeing it as perpetuating the very racial divides that are actually the problem by bloating innocuous things out of proportion. If the issue is "my skin color isn't a costume", too fucking bad; everyone else's is and has been from the beginning.
The problem during blackface minstrel acts wasn't the makeup, it was using it as an ingredient of broader awful stereotypes. And while there's understandably sourness left over from a really long period of exploitation and hate, I feel like directing it here, toward a context that has nothing to do with that exploitation and hate, does more harm than good to the ultimate cause of moving on and doing better.
edited 24th Aug '12 9:28:37 PM by Pykrete
antic disposition
I can understand the problems of privilege and history giving the act bad connotations, but for me, there's this insidious implication that one shouldn't cosplay outside of one's race. It implies that skin tone is still something that defines a character and a person to such a great extent. Surely the entire point of combating racism is to give everyone the same opportunities regardless of skin colour, which is something they can't control whatever race they might be.
Sure, think about what you're doing in terms of skin tone and costuming, and whether it might offend someone. Is race an important part of this character? Could your costume be construed as stereotypical? Considering those issues is vital in a sensitive issue. But to give so much important to skin colour and call for everyone to cosplay within their own tone, particularly in fantasy works where skin colours aren't necessarily related to ethnicity or culture, seems to promote racism more than it combats it.
"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
I am okay with cosplay, but I think it depends on when. If you are just doing this for pictures by yourself, then I'm okay, I mean you only have yourself to work with. If you're doing like group costumes or something, the way I see it, is that I'm sure you can find a person of the right skintone. But, for what it's worth, in my experience white people interested in cosplay (aka nerds) tend to be pretty inexperienced with racial issues, and don't understand AT ALL why anybody ever considered brownface offensive That's where the argument starts.
Cosplayers usually aren't group, but individual people. They can't find other people to costume for them. And even if the could, they want to cosplay, not to see cosplay. Usually, the cosplayers cosplay as much for themselves than for others. Part of the fun is wearing the costume. You can't get other people to do that for you.
edited 24th Aug '12 10:59:19 PM by Heatth
technically, they're just saying one shouldn't paint their skin a different color while cosplaying a different race, which is something entirely different.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
And, as Heavy DDR pointed, if they didn't painted themselves, there would be the ones who would call out for giving the characters a Race Lift.
I wouldn't. I can't really speak for whatever strawman social justice warriors you're talking about.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
There's also the fact that there are people calling a couple of hours in a tanning bed brownfacing.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I don't think anyone was talking about you, specifically.
Was it? It was just our speculation about that blog
, wasn't it? We don't know if the Korra/Inkerbell girl was really tanning nor if that blog girl knew that.
edited 25th Aug '12 10:54:21 AM by Heatth
I can see uninformed people on either side getting upset. But if you're going to dress up you should be aware of the connotations of what you're putting on your body, and if someone gets offended, you can explain that you're dressing up like this because this is a character you admire and you wanted to do their appearance justice to the best of your ability. I couldn't really see myself getting mad if someone liked a character of my race so much that they dressed up like them. (As long as I understood the idea of cosplay.)
Not that both sides are going to be all hugs and giggles after that, but a bit of reason and respectful speech would go a long way toward avoiding problems like these.
She's not the only one I've seen make the same assumption. I have a lot of friends who cosplay.
The Wanderer
Agreed.
NOT THE BEES
I just call it inadvertently cosplaying as an Oompa Loompa because Fake'n'Bake looks ridiculous, but hey 
edited 25th Aug '12 11:17:09 AM by Pykrete
There's a difference between over tanning and tanning badly and just spending a little time in a tanning bed and letting your skin do all the work. Fake'n'Bake is using a tanning bed wrong, of using a version that involves putting chemicals on your skin. It doesn't automatically turn you orange. You could do a day on the beach instead and get the same colour.
edited 25th Aug '12 12:08:47 PM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
antic disposition
@Wicked: I was talking about the Tumblr posts linked, which basically said "cosplay as another character; you are being racist if you cosplay as someone of another race".
"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
That's not really what I got out of those links.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
antic disposition
It's not explicitly stated, but there's a very strong implication from these posts that I can't shake off. "You can cosplay a dark-skinned character if you want to, but don’t make yourself over into an ethnicity you’re not. And don’t whine or cry if people side eye you or accuse you of whitewashing. You purposely CHOSE that dark-skinned character when we already have so much fucking representation..." Given both options (make-up and no make-up) are seen as racist, there's only really "cosplay as your race". The same sort of message is present in the first post: "Anyone can cosplay as anyone as long as they remember that skin of a real living person is not a costume. A troll, go head. A demon, go mad. But an actual race of peoples. No. They can’t. And white people have an advantage in anime cosplaying because there are so many lightskinned characters..."
"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
I am well aware. And I think putting the onus on the offended is warranted in some cases. I know why such attitude is dangerous. Blaming the victim is usually a despicable thing, after all. But, at the same time, one person actions can't be dictated by avoiding doing something that might offend someone, specially if the action is innocuous. It is the same as not saying God's name in vain because it might offend some religious folks. Well, yeah, it might offend them, but it is their own problem. Everything might offend someone. People just have to suck up some times.
The problem is when someone is doing on purpose. Either by being directly offensive* or by being passive aggressive*. The cosplayers, however, are doing what they are doing with very innocent purpose. If one is offended by that it is their own fault.
It is really interesting how we treat racial issues differently, considering with have similar past in that regard. Not to say racism doesn't exist over here. It does. But it is much more related to socio-economical status than anything. Black people are normally poor and that is why they suffer prejudice. For example, as far I know, "black neighborhood" or even "black culture" are not really a thing here as it is in US. Instead, it is "poor neighborhood" and "poor culture"*.
But what past conversations are you referring to? This same thread, two pages ago, or somewhere else?
edited 23rd Aug '12 8:37:06 PM by Heatth