Scottish Independence

My understanding of this is admittedly fairly basic, but I thought that the idea was that having a currency beholden to the Bank of England =/= full independence.

They've released a 75 page document and an internal civil service letter referred to in your own post. It's a list of reasons why a currency union would be bad; the benefit is not having those things. What exactly is missing?

The Treasury has done a great job of knocking down its own strawman, but their analysis conveniently ignores the working model proposed by the Fiscal Commission last year and quite a few important facts about the Scottish economy; inflating the size of the banking sector to over twelve times the size of the economy is a particularly creative bit of fictional accounting.

But it's not like anyone can expect the Chancellor to be an expert on the economy, right?

Political independence and economic independence aren't the same thing, and the BOE isn't technically part of the government. We would still be independent in the conventional use of the word, and in basically all areas except having full control over monetary policy. It's more than a little disingenuous to claim that this would not mean full independence.

At the risk of sounding stupid, isn't that what Scotland's basically got already?

In terms of the currency, I think so, yes. Obviously other economic powers which we do not control, such as taxation, would be gained by independence, along with all the other non-economic stuff.

Maybe part of why the UK wouldn't want a currency union with an independent Scotland is that there's a rather well known currency union just across the channel that is doing rather badly and we're afraid of ending up the same way.

The thing that puts me of the "yes" campaign the most is the mass of racism coming out of it, it's always "evil English" this and "Oppressive southerners" that, after a while one starts to get tired of being made out to be a hateful elitist bigot just because of where your born.

You want to know what an oppressive central government looks like? How about Serbia? Who tried to force Kosovo to stay by force. Or Spain where the central government has declared that no referendum in Catalonia will have any value. Or maybe even Canada, where a national vote would be required for Quebec to leave.

I'll take the "Yes" campaign seriously when they drop the victim card and approach this as it should be approached, a mature discussion between two groups about the future of one nation made up of multiple countries.

Uh, a nation wide vote isn't necessary for Quebec (or any other province) to separate. They just have to hammer out all the fine details with the federal government (which probably happens during any peaceful separation process) and can't just leave unilaterally.

This is what I get for just remembering Zendervai's post in the Canadian Politics thread and forgetting yours. Either way, my reading of what you guys said in the Canadian Politics thread was that Quebec dosen't have anywhere near as nice a secession set-up as Scotland does.

edited 15th Feb '14 10:48:11 PM by Silasw

BBC: Scottish independence: Barroso says joining EU would be 'difficult'

So in other words if the Spanish do follow through on their threat then it's game over.

I'm not a fan of the Yes campaign either, but to call it "racist" is just ridiculous, and that's really not the attitude that I'm getting from pro-independence campaigners. They usually stress that the problem is the Westminster political elite, not the English in general (which I'm actually entirely in agreement with, I just think there are better ways of dealing with it than breaking up the country).

There does seem to be a premise behind the SNP's predictions — that it will happen. Of course, when it doesn't...does that mean that Salmond will be giving the President of the EU Commission a "Glasgow Kiss"?

And the SNP's response to the above. From The BBC:

edited 16th Feb '14 6:15:50 AM by Greenmantle

About Spain's objections: How grounded are they? Would Scotland leaving the UK and (re)joining the EU really set a precedent for other regional seperatists?

Just how likely uses is this actually happening.

As much as I dearest the British government I would be quite upset to see the United Kingdom break up for good.

This is wrong on several counts. Firstly, "racism" is completely the wrong term anyway. Scottish people and those from the rest of the UK are, broadly, the same race. Xenophobia would be more accurate, though that would only be if the point was valid. Of course, there will be extremist elements within the campaign, and I can hardly deny that there are Scottish xenophobes who genuinely hate the English. But there will be extremists latching onto any political opinion or campaign, and there are just as certainly anti-Scottish xenophobes in the rest of the UK who support Yes for the same/opposite reason.

In neither case is xenophobia practised by the SNP, nor does it constitute a meaningful portion of Yes campaign supporters. It isn't necessary in political discussons to clarify that the name of a country actually refers to the government and not the people, every single time. When Salmond criticises "the UK" or "England" he obviously does not mean the people, who do not have anything to do with it, but the government, the policies of whom do not represent the will of the Scottish people.

Bigotry is something you're falsely reading into it; almost my entire family is English, and I spent years living and working there, so I've just as much reason to be offended by any anti-English statements as any, but I've not seen anything of the sort other than by the kind of fringe lunatics who should just be ignored anyway.

edited 16th Feb '14 11:56:25 AM by CaissasDeathAngel

It might not be rational, it might not be the case, but it actually does seem that sometimes Salmond is personally criticising the English people. At least that's how it looks from South of the border.

The fact that anything potentially detrimental to the nationalist campaign seems to be met with accusations of bullying doesn't help.

Examples please, I'm sceptical. I don't have the highest opinion of Alex Salmond but I've never got the impression that he dislikes English people.

I actually think most of the xenophobia is coming from south of the border, particularly from Conservatives. My solidly Tory uncle is desperate for Scotland to leave because he thinks it'd mean he'd never have to live under a Labour government again.

edited 16th Feb '14 1:33:52 PM by pagad

Thus ignoring the fact that chunks of northern England are Labour strongholds too.

He works in the City, what can I say.

I've lived almost all my life in Conservative seats and I can accept that.

@ pagad:

No evidence, just a feeling from my currently sleep-addled brain. And yes, I'm sure if England had a vote, Scotland would have to become independent.

Scotland alone could not have changed the result in any election since 1974 - though obviously it does mean that the swing constituencies become a lot more important to England if Scotland leavs. Salmond isn't exactly considered a messiah on either side of the campaign or border, with plenty of people who suppport Yes hating the guy with a passion. Still, he's in charge for now, and there really isn't any credible opposition to him here, he's too entrenched for that. Though obviously his career is totally dependent on this result one way or the other. If the No vote wins, I can't see Scottish independence getting another shot for 70+ years.

Rather than double post, I'll add this grossly offensive post by Scottish Labour leader's official spokesman, comparing the independence debate to cancer. And the horse you rode in on, Mr Sinclair.

edited 16th Feb '14 2:33:24 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

Scottish Labour still has a leader? Well, that's a surprise. Where has she been hiding?

Does Salmond have any back up plans? Westminster politicians say they won't agree with a shared currency union. He says they will. European politicians say they might not let an independent Scotland join the EU. He says they will. I've no problem with his plan A being they will on both counts, but does he have plans B, C, and D for one or both of them saying no? It's all very well to say that it would only be sensible for these politicians to say yes, but I've not often observed politicians being sensible.