Justice Avengers: Discussion

What month? That'll decide which of us is the second oldest.

Also, watched Civil War today. So is Godfrey the Zemo of our story?

Also also: presenting the (may-as-well-be official) anime 'ending song' of Captain America: Civil War.

edited 22nd May '16 12:08:57 AM by Demovere

September

DAMMIT MARK, STOP HOTTING HELPY!!

Oh right, I forgot to give my opinion on Civil War. OK, the bad first:

• I didn't care for the plot that much. I'm not saying it's bad - and it's leagues better than the plot in the comics- but it basically boiled down to people knee-jerk-reacting to what someone else did. In some cases it was understandable -it's hard to keep control when someone kills a loved one- but that happened too many times in the movie.

• Suddenly the Avengers are blamed for failing to save lives while at the same time they saved many more? And how come no one pointed that if the Heroes didn't help, the authorities would have done no better on their own? No mention of how the UN almost NUKED NY or how SHIELD was infiltrated by Hydra? The movie seemed to conveniently forget facts just to get the plot moving. I found it very annoying.

• Anybody else found it hard to swallow how tough Black Panther was? I mean in the comics he uses some "mystic herbs" for a temporary power boost, but here he just had a vibranium suit, which makes him invulnerable (bad idea) but not superstrong (heck at one point he took on Bucky without the suit and didn't do so bad. Who trained him, Iron Fist?

• DORKIEST. SPIDEY. EVER. And WHY is Aunt May so young? So Tony could hit on her??

OK, now what I DID like:

• While the plot didn't convince me, the tone of the story was perfect. You could believe these were real people who were hurt and hesitated yet felt compelled to do what they did. And connecting Cap and Iron Man's stories by having Bucky be the one who killed Tony's parents was pure genius! Oh and T'Challa realizing vengeance was self-destructive was a favorite moment.

• The action. Oh My God the action!! This is the closest to a Live Action Comic Book Battle I've ever seen, with a dozen characters on-screen at one point yet each having its own badass moments. My favorites were definitely Ant-Man and Spider-Man.

• The SFX ranged from OK to great, especially during (again) the action sequences.

So all in all, while not perfect, Civil War was one of the best movies I've seen in a long time and perfect for my 50th Birthday celebration.

edited 22nd May '16 7:06:20 AM by Sijo

Hey, you put this in the wrong section.

No I didn't. Sorry but I didn't like that version of Peter or May. Tough I understand why they decided to go with younger versions (more relateable to the audience and can be used for years in more movies) I still feel the characters should have been a bit older. Also, blackmailer much, Tony?

On the one hand, I do understand why they cast a teenager as Spidey- he was introduced as a teenager, it's his most recognizable aspect to a mainstream audience even if it is annoying to see him permanently stuck in high school.

And in Aunt May's case, I do kinda see why even if I don't particularly like it- having a teenager raised by an eighty something woman who's supposed to be his aunt and not his great aunt or something might seem a bit off, though there are legitimate questions to be raised about how age is treated in Hollywood, especially regarding women.

Then again, Spider-Man's a character I respect more than I like. He codified the teen superhero, which I'm grateful for, but I'm honestly pretty indifferent to him. My favorite Spidey book is Scarlet Spider, which isn't actually about Spider-Man.

It might have something to do with the fact that we've had characters introduced recently who do a way better job at being audience viewpoint characters than Spidey as of late- I certainly don't identify with science nerds who date tons of women and make deals with Satan and still live with their elderly aunts and suffer constantly (and also he's Steve Jobs now?). Stop trying to tell me he's an Everyman, Marvel.

TL;DR: take my Spider-Man opinions with a grain of salt, because I'm not really a fan.

Also, are you saying the incredibly powerful team that answers to nobody but their own consciences shouldn't maybe have some kind of oversight?

edited 15th Apr '17 9:35:16 PM by emilyorthoclase

Actually, you are at least third oldest, Ud. I am 31. I was born in September of 1984.

Wizard Needs Food Badly

Sijo, you know Peter is a huge dork, right?

My various fanfics.

I can honestly see a strong plot for (a Civil War type thing) about the UN/other countries being kind of nervous about how all these supergods are clearly Americans acting out of America with (theoretically) American interests, but that might be... to real-world geopolitics? I dunno. It would be an interesting thing to play with.

Gimme yer lunch money, dweeb.

Peter had a Clark Kent "Mild Mannered" secret id thing going. Maybe he was just a nerd before he became a Spider-Man, but afterwards it was just an act. And it's been years (even in comic book time) since that anyway.

(As for all that crap with Mephisto, Spies, etc., don't get me started)

Re: Avengers- in a Perfect World, they could trust the UN or someone else to oversee them. But as we have seen, theirs is hardly a perfect world. Then again neither are the heroes, judging by how easily Zemo manipulated them -seriously? all it took was a mask to convince almost everyone Bucky was the killer? So much for modern investigation techniques. Oh by that same line of reasoning, why did they believe in Zemo's footage of Tony's parent's deaths? For all they knew it could have been fake too, even if it wasn't. I guess there's no easy answer- you just have to hope that the people who have acted the best (the Heroes, not the politicians or the armies) continue to do so.

I would love to see DC's Global Guardians (with Marvel international heroes added as well) pop in one of our threads one day too!

edited 22nd May '16 1:07:46 PM by Sijo

Well, since Bucky didn't speak a word in his own defence, and he remembers every single one of the murders he was forced to commit, then...

Y'know, this talk of international politics in the MCU reminds me of two things. Firstly, there's a couple of subplots I've been mulling related to other countries in our own universe. Gotta get them out at some point. Secondly, while I haven't read the old Ultimates comics, I found out that their second story arc involved the countries of the world assembling a super team to combat the American Ultimates. Draw your own conclusions on the writers' geopolitical leanings there.

When was it ever stated or implied Spider-Man was playing up his secret identity's nerdiness? I've never seen any implication of that anywhere. Yes, Superman does it, but he relies on a pair of glasses to hide his identity. Spider-Man wears a full face mask and doesn't give out interviews to Lois Lane.

Seeing as it was implied in CA:TWS that Bucky was responsible by someone who would know, it's been all but confirmed.

Hell, even the idea that Clark Kent is the act instead of Superman depends entirely on the author and interpretation. Peter Parker is a nerd. Teenage Peter Parker is a bigger nerd. Teenage Peter Parker surrounded by famous superheroes IS THE BIGGEST NERD.

My various fanfics.

On an unrelated note, I've been having a bit more musing over the green lantern system we've got. For starters, I plan to switch out the current link to the custom Emotional Spectrum to my final draft (so maybe now I can finally shut up about it).

For finishers, I've been giving some thought to the Earth-2 type of lantern stuff: the one that's ACTUALLY mystical stuff as opposed to Silver Age super science. The New 52's been tying it into the concept of the Green, so I'm considering having an alternate universe spectrum comprised of the various domains of life. You know, if anyone's interested.

Sigh. Kids these days. They read a comic or watch a movie and think they know a character better than someone who has for 40 years.

Peter is not a nerd, at least, not in the sense of being a clueless pushover like he was in this movie. And he's been the subject of character studies over the years, especially the way he "changes" when he puts on the mask, from a geek into a happy-go-lucky swashbuckler who makes puns while kicking ass. I've seen it referred to as a "freeing experience" that allows him to be his true self. I'm reminded of one story in which Peter could not hold back anymore and (during a boxing match) punched Flash out. In public!

@Emily: It's more of a matter of letting Zemo manipulate them so blatantly. Cap should have said "Maybe. It- needs more investigation. But what I know is that this man hates us, and wants us to fight. We shouldn't let him win." And Tony should've agreed.

Huh. Maybe when they do the Civil War How It Should Have Ended, they will do something like that.

edited 22nd May '16 4:20:25 PM by Sijo

You have to remember that Peter's been Spider-Man for six months at this point. He's not a character with decades of history and backstories and experiences, in this universe, he's just a kid.

My various fanfics.

Cap *knew* Bucky was guilty, and he kept it from Iron Man. To deny that would be a massively dick move, and he is Steve Rogers, Perfect Human. Lying to his friends/coworkers doesn't come naturally to him, even if their relationship has been largely antagonistic. What would happen once Iron Man found out that yes, Bucky did kill his parents? Nothing good.

Also, I wouldn't characterize MCU Spidey as a clueless pushover. Starstruck, yes. Easily manipulated by an older, more powerful man, yes. Wholly unnecessary to the plot, yes. Clueless pushover? Not really.

edited 22nd May '16 4:36:18 PM by emilyorthoclase

(Hops onto Sijo's side) Well, so was the Andrew Garfield version, but he kind of did that whole 'freeing' aspect Sijo's getting at, what with him getting more confident and snarky behind the mask.

(Hops onto Sharknado's side) But on the other hand, yeah, I think the swashbuckling hero is a bit much to expect at this stage of the character's life. We'll have to wait at least until his solo movie before he gets that much confidence in himself.

Actually, you know what I'd like to see at some point? A Spider Verse-type movie with most of the past Spider-Man stars reprising their roles. We could have Tobey Maguire's emotional Spidey, Garfield's snarky Spidey, MCU's dorky Spidey, and we can compare and contrast them all while getting some real good character interplay, it'll be a blast!

Can you tell I've put a lot of thought into this confrontation?

My various fanfics.

Been looking forward to this.

What confrontation?

And I *did* point out that it made sense that a Peter this young would be easily manipulated by Stark. It's the fact they made him so young that annoys me. I fear that the next Spider-Man movie will be all about "Spider-Man, Radical Teenager for the new generation!" ugh. (Also, May doesn't need to be a doddering old fool. But young enough for Tony to hit on? Please.)

And I guess what really pissed me off about the "reveal" was that it came after it seemed like Tony had been made to realize that he was wrong all along. I was all like, "What, AGAIN? Hello, Zemo is right there, you KNOW he's just doing this to get you to fight, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?" I expected Tony to at least get into a rage for a few moments and then calm down. Seriously, couldn't Cap say something like "Would Pepper want you to do this? Would your parents?" You know, win the moral battle, instead of pummeling his friend to submission?

Oh well at least it was an awesome fight.

I mean, I'm pretty sure she's around the same age as Tony. And Tony is in his forties?

EDIT: The confrontation between Godfrey and Booster. THE TITANS OF MEDIA.

edited 22nd May '16 6:30:32 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.

The whole point of Peter becoming a photographer was so he could take care of May, since she was too old. OK that was not very likely but hey, it's the official story. They just progressively made her younger over the years on tv and the movies because like Emily said, Hollywood has a problem with casting unattractive or older women. And does Tony really need yet another woman to hit on? When he spat out her cookies, I wanted to punch him on his perfect teeth.

I mean... what's he supposed to do if he doesn't actually like them? It's not like he can call them gross to her face. I doubt he was literally trying to charm her pants off.

My various fanfics.

@Sijo "Spider-Man, Radical Teenager for the new generation!" not to rekindle the confrontation, but you're thinking of Amazing Spiderman there, Tom Holland's Spidey/Peter seems like differen beast

The graceless warrior, wielder of the edgeless blade, prophet of the old religions, writer of fluent nonsense, saviour of soul and song.