MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
A procrastination in of itself
I’ve always either split the cost (half and half, or for the cinema one buys tickets and the other buys snacks) or early on in my current relationship we would do a one for one situation (so I’d pay one date and she’d pay the next).
The idea of offering to pay is silly to me, why would I be the only one paying? I do that for people that are dependent on me like younger siblings, not an equal partner.
edited 23rd Nov '17 8:31:44 AM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Amusingly, splitting the check is the third least popular option in the USA according to that poll (15%). The second least popular is going dutch, with each person paying for what they ordered (9%).
Both men and women hate the idea of women always paying for the first date. Only 1% of men and women thought women should always pay for the first date.
"Whoever initiated the date" was the most popular option among women, with 37% of women for it. 27% of men agreed with them.
edited 23rd Nov '17 8:49:16 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Incidentally only 29% of women feel the same way.
That makes sense to me. Paying for things is a minor display of power. It's a way of signaling to your date, "I am financially capable of taking care of you." It has its roots in the traditional patriarchal structure of male breadwinners and female homemakers. Consequentially, who pays for the first date sets the tone of the relationship.
- If the man pays, it establishes the relationship as a traditional one.
- If the woman pays, it establishes the relationship as a contrarian one, where the traditional roles of male and female are reversed.
- If the question of who should pay is discussed and a deal worked out, such as one party paying tonight while the other pays for the next or both parties going in halfway or such, it establishes a power dynamic of equal leverage.
Naturally, the popularity of the traditional power dynamic is waning faster among women than it is among men. As much as MRAs like to complain about being expected to pay for things and hold doors and shit, men are historically reluctant to surrender their power.
edited 23rd Nov '17 9:25:25 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Unreasonably Quirky
I don't think that's the right way to frame it. I can't imagine that most men offer to pay the bill as some sort of chest-beating display of dominance. At least, I don't.
In my case, it's a way of signaling to my date, "I'm afraid that if I don't at least offer to pay you're going to think I'm a cheapskate. (Also I'm Jewish and I don't want to reinforce stereotypes.)"
edited 23rd Nov '17 10:39:23 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest
I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.
I've seen men act as if they've been threatened if their date offers to pay. It's pathetic and demonstrates just how deep toxic masculinity has gone into the culture.
A procrastination in of itself
I’m not sure, look at the other options, 49% of women would be offended if asked to split the bill, while only 24% of men would be.
Men want to split the bill but feel they can’t, while nearly half of women don’t want to split the bill.
I imagine that a number of the “who initiated the date” answers actually people who feel that the man should pay but can’t imagine a scenario where the man isn’t the one initiating the date.
When you’ve got a 50/50 chance of offending your date by asking to split the bill I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that you’d have to pay.
edited 23rd Nov '17 11:02:26 AM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The law in the night
Honestly, offering to play in this case is the safe option for men. Either out of courtesy or to avoid the potential prospect of pissing off your date or being regarded as a cheap person.
Still sucks, because I've been there and done that even when I was broke as fuck. Sometimes my date would object and each one would pay their share of the bill and sometimes I ended up paying everything.
There is the issue of the social consequences of not even offering to pay the bill on the date. Not only your date can think you are cheap but the news of your cheapness can extend to your reputation as a dating prospect to other women.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Impossible Gender Forge
Sometimes I'm really grateful that I'm gay, since it makes some of this heteronormative stuff really obvious.
As amusing as having two men both pay the bill while two women dating just glide off, confident in the knowledge that no force can make them pay the bill. 
United Earth
Yup. Although I guess you can expect the older, wealthier partner to pay for the younger, prettier one, when this particular dynamic applies.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
This actually reminds me of a conversation about I had once with my mom, who considers herself a feminist but is considerably a bit more old-fashioned in places. She thinks that I should always let the guy pay, because hey it's a free meal, because if I were to split the bill it would be insulting to the guy by suggesting he can't afford to pay on his own, and because any offer of my own money is a message to the guy that he has free license to mooch off of me in return. I don't quite see it that way, mostly because I'm not the type who really values performative gender dynamics in the first place, so I'd just prefer to split the bill regardless. Also because there's a fair chance it could be another woman on the other side of the table so this whole question is moot anyway.
Women who prefer their male dates to pay are a rare instance of how women can take advantage of the ultimately multilateral reach of patriarchal systems for their own benefit, as it ties back into the idea of men as the primary breadwinners. If a guy were to offer to pay for my dinner I would hope that it's just a case of him showing off that he's independently wealthy enough to spend money this frivolously and thus look like a desirable partner to impress me, otherwise he comes off as foolhardy and believing he can buy my approval.
Generally speaking, I feel like a mutual decision to consistently split the bill is a better demonstration of good faith on both ends, so long as we can trust each other not to engage in something so financially indulgent that it feels like one of us is struggling just to keep up.
edited 23rd Nov '17 1:47:39 PM by AlleyOop
United Earth
A procrastination in of itself
Dam, am I the only guy here with enough self respect that I wouldn’t want to date someone who’d consider me cheep for not paying for everything?
Like why would I want to date such a person? I can do better than someone with such outdated gender views.
edited 23rd Nov '17 6:21:43 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
No, that's how I feel.
Also I wouldn't wanna date anyone who doesn't understand I don't have money for dinners and so on.
Oh really when?
The law in the night
You are in England, kinda ahead of the curve compared to where I am at.
It is annoying but if you don't be that gentleman or show off a little you might as well get a date with the square root of negative one, because the real number of possible dates you can get depending of where you are at can get really small if you don't abide to some norms.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Honestly, I think that if you are genuinely forcing yourself to do things that you dont like to be just tolerated as a acceptable partner, well, that relationship will be complicated.
From where are you? I am from Peru and well, we are outdated a lot.
edited 23rd Nov '17 5:01:57 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
The law in the night
Southern Brazil.
Honestly, I already have issues finding mates with compatible musical tastes, even then trying to find someone in the same page as I am on social issues is already complicated enough, now finding someone who doesn't subscribes to one notion or another about gender norms when this has been drilled on everyone's heads from start is quite a challenge.
I mean, surely I'd offer paying for the first date out of courtesy, but if she at least doesn't even try to pull her weight financially wise, then it isn't going to be a lasting relationship.
My last ex-girlfriend, kinda was more willing than I was to pour money into our relationship, specially since I was on my last year at college and doing unpaid internships. However the moment she started to use that as an emotional blackmail chip, as in look all I did for you! Don't you leave me!, I knew it was pretty much not going to be a healthy relationship and after trying to work things out, it really wasn't one.
edited 23rd Nov '17 5:14:11 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges
Same here. Honestly our culture of masculinity is even more dreadful than the US's in my opinion.
Unreasonably Quirky
Good for you.
I can't. 
The Mod with the Migraine
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Shin Megami Tensei IV
You are brazillian too? Interesting,
Well, for my side, I considerate myself lucky in the sense that I have relatively progressive parents, they are still a bit outdated but they are pretty good, specially my mom that is the one that win more money and had a university degree. About the whole wanting someone with the same social views as you, well, I never thought of it. I had a crush in a girl with some weird sexual ideas and seeing other girls as sluts for flirting while she was the girl with more boyfriends that I have met, I still liked her, in hindsight, this really was another show of how much issues she had (I dont have a good experience on relationships so far, I am still a teen but things dont look nice in that sense).
Watch me destroying my country
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
The poll article suggested the sample really was composed only of heterosexual types, so I don't know how else to phrase it
Field Marshal of Cracked
Well, I'm just glad I have not been and I doubt I will ever be in a situation where this applies, score one for the eternally single!
Oh, bother.
High-five fellow eternally single person!
Yeah, the one asking should be the one paying, unless otherwise agreed, the way I'm brought up. I mean, I find it somewhat rude to ask someone out on a date, and then expect them to pay for you. "Hey, wanna go out? You're paying."
Check out my fanfiction!