MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
United Earth
You mean they claim entitlement to something they decry?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
It's hard to go sour grapes when society constantly tells you sex is the best thing ever and you need to have it to be considered a man.
Sex and relationships, right?
I think it's kinda creepy how people are basically groomed to seek relationships. There's this one ad for an erasable pen that features tweenybopper girls fawning over this popular tween guy, and it grosses me out. (The ad has a boy doodling the popular boy and trying to erase his features to turn the girls away from him. It doesn't work. Yeah, maybe it's just a disturbing ad in general.)
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Sex for men, relationships for women. Women seeking only sex, are sluts. And for men looking for relationships is secondary. If you're only wanting to have sex in a relationship, you're wierd.
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
And it's worse if you're not particularly interested in either.
Not Three Laws compliant.
Oh, bother.
After Harvey Weinstein allegations, psychologists explain why men protect abusive men
The article attempts to answer the question "Why do so many men embrace a “bro code” of silence, even when good friends and business partners — people with whom we should feel comfortable being honest — start acting creepy?"
First off, there's toxic masculinity.
The next part calls out the prevalence of the Standard Hero Reward in media. Something a Cracked article years ago also pointed out as one contributor to misogyny.
“We treat [women] like prizes,” Smiler said. “We hear about ‘trophy wives,’ but nobody really talks about having a ‘trophy husband.’ We see all of these movies, particularly action movies, where the guy gets the hot babe. Mostly because he’s James Bond, for example, and just smiles. Or he’s Tony Stark [from the Iron Man films] — he doesn’t really do anything, other than be rich and powerful. Not a whole lot of effort there. But [the] message is very explicit: To the victor go the spoils, and spoils is access to hot women.”
The article also suggests that men who aren't sexist and want sexist behavior to stop are not as alone as they might think.
Kilmartin offered an example from his own experience: A young psychology student, attending a bachelor’s party with 12 friends, was struggling with his discomfort about the group’s plans to visit a strip club. After some worry, the student decided to finally tell his friends that he didn’t want to go. To his surprise, eight of his friends spoke up and said they agreed with him, and the group elected to celebrate somewhere else.
“One of the things I tell men is, ‘You don’t have to get out your flip chart, but indicating your disapproval can be really powerful,’” Kilmartin said. “When you identify male allies, that kind of groupthink complicity and conformity drops very, very sharply — even if you are in the minority. It’s a leadership issue in some way: When the first guy steps up, he — and others — realizes there’s more support in the room than many might think.”
edited 10th Oct '17 7:18:35 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
That psychologist's findings corroborate a lot of my own observations.
Men are regularly taught to have a complex adversarial relationship with women that's fundamentally unhealthy. They're taught that women are creatures different from them, from whom they're encouraged to win sex and relationships from (as if it they were some sort of opponent, not a human being they're trying to build a meaningful connection with), but who ultimately act according to their own interests, at the expense of men's emotional and material well-being. So they're taught that they can only ever really trust and be understood by other men, which fosters this sort of perverse male solidarity where they're encouraged to overlook this sort of thing.
Because of the way the whole system is set up, men who champion defense of women in many contexts are viewed as intellectually dishonest opportunists, who are championing women's well-being under the selfish pretense of being seen as a good person or gaining the favor of women, and in doing so, are fundamentally betraying male camaraderie by shielding people who probably don't care about them anyways.
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I wonder how many of today's and tomorrow's virulent misogynists are guys who grew up playing too many Save the Princess games and dating sims.
edited 10th Oct '17 7:36:11 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
Or the guy who got rejected by that one woman once and never got over it.
That seems to be a common thing in my experience.
Oh, bother.
These are guys who never outgrew the frustration their childhood selves felt upon seeing the Your Princess Is in Another Castle! message in Super Mario Bros..
edited 10th Oct '17 7:42:07 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Some of my friends told me about their time in military evaluation. One guy was bragging how he cheated on his girlfriend to the other men there. No one said anything. Yet, they were clearly uncomfortable with him being such an asshole.
Related to the Weinstein fiasco: Terry Crews sharing his own experience with abuse in the Hollywood system: https://twitter.com/MelissaHLeon/status/917843001052946435
mind you, if the guy who acts in the Old Spice commercials as a paragon (well at least one) of masculinity can be intimidated by this sort of abuse, what more the other voiceless men and women who have been preyed
I think Hollywood is just a fundamentally broken institution morally speaking. It seems really difficult to not run into someone who's done something horrible, or running into someone who's been complicit in some horrible person's crimes, whether it be that they worked with them on a project even after knowing of the allegations, shielding them by making excuses or remaining silent, etc. Seriously I've found that to be true with a LOT of famous people in Hollywood, it's not long before you run into something foul, even when the person seems to be fundamentally decent.
In order to get ahead you often have to subject yourself to terrible abuse and remain silent, OR you eventually become someone in power and you abuse that power simply for no other reason than you know you can probably get away with it.
I'm reminded of that one quote from Charlotte Moore of Bojack Horseman.
edited 10th Oct '17 9:49:57 PM by Draghinazzo
Oh, bother.
Seems to be a recurring problem with power. And Hollywood is a place where people accrue vast amounts of power in the form of fame and money.
That's what all of these things are about in the end: power.
edited 10th Oct '17 10:02:15 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
I'm strangely haunted by the story that Terry Crews shared and I don't know why. I'm sorry that he's been through something like this. At least he can finally share his story and give a little insight into the kind of abuses of power at play here.
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Honestly, it's scary stuff like that which makes scummy people survive and thrive for decades, while evading justice. There is a reason why rotten Hollywood has always been a theme, because when you have a place where money and power combine then it produces corruption.
edited 10th Oct '17 10:19:34 PM by firewriter
Oh, bother.
It is even worse in entertainment industries, since this is dealing with our escapism. Our stories, our music, our art, etc. Too many of us turn a blind eye because we don't want the escapism to stop.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Or they cultivate a false image of themselves for years, like Bill Cosby, who for decades was considered America's favorite dad. I couldn't believe it at first, but as time prove again I just had to face the truth and realize the man, who made us all laugh also hurt so many women. I remember watching Little Bill as kid and my parents remember growing up with Fat Albert. However, I have to say facing the ugly truth is better than keeping up a pretty lie, because it's your favorite celebrity.
edited 10th Oct '17 10:32:32 PM by firewriter
Oh, jesus, that's awful. Poor Terry Crews. I'm glad he stepped up and spoke out about it. In addition to all the victimized women it's important that men are able to talk about this kind of abuse just as frankly.
No longer a forum herald
Cosby admittedly falls under the minority of cases where he specifically cultivated his appeal to families and younger children. While most entertainers don't aim for "mature" and/or "edgy" content, they aren't usually trying to bill themselves as kid-friendly either, so it's less shocking when their closet skeletons come to light.
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
United Earth
@Terry Crews:
Why the Hell would anyone do that?
For the record, I think if Terry Crews went forward with this, he'd be fine. People love him more than any executive.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Oh, bother.
Since Bojack Horseman was brought up...
Bojack Horseman S 2 E 07 Hank After Dark seems even more painfully relevant now.
Disgusted, but not surprised
The courts might not.
You know, thinking about it a bit more, it's maybe not that surprising someone was brazen enough to do it against Mr. Old Spice / President Camacho / Sgt Terrence Jeffords because
- He's black, so god knows how the media will spin this (as he himself lampshaded in the tweets)
- The producer has power over an actor like him, no matter how popular/charismatic he is
- Forget it, Handle, it's Hollywood
edited 11th Oct '17 2:21:10 AM by Pachylad
Got surrounded by a bunch of foxes yelling about how they are entitled to have sour grapes.
edited 6th Sep '17 5:13:15 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges