MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
"Patriarchy", like a lot of political terminology, is a tool to create false consensus. It allows many more people than would agree on any definition of the term to make one unified demand. Bickering over what you should demand weakens you politically in a way that disagreeing over what your demand means doesn't.
edited 29th Jul '15 3:13:30 PM by Kzickas
The law in the night
You can't even call all patriarchal societies on the same level, Middle East, North America, Asia, Africa and Europe have different standards of what is acceptable behaviour for males and females in their societies.
Cultural inertial is a thing, society as a whole is changing, but it won't happen overnight like people want it to. I don't even think I'll see a fully equal society in my life time, but that doesn't mean I should perpetuate the ills we're going through.
Even then there will be places that are ahead of the curve, but also places that can turn backwards out of spite and fear if pressured. Just look at Kenya after the US declared gay marriage a fundamental right.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Jupiterian Local
I mean, there's no secret council of patriarchs forcing men and women into specific roles to fulfill some ulterior motive. This isn't the Illuminati. The "patriarchy", the way I see it, is an amalgamation of obsolete gender roles that were created thousands of years ago for survival purposes. Now they're outdated and serve no practical purpose, but society hasn't gotten the memo.
There isn't. Patriarchy is more like a society-wide bad habit. It's something that we do to ourselves, even though (most of us) recognize that it's harmful and we shouldn't do it anymore. But knowing we shouldn't be doing it and actually getting out of the habit are two very different things.
Nameless Hero
If this is a silly question then please feel free to give a silly answer- where do patriarchal attitudes come from? Cavemen (who never lived in caves much :P)?
Also, I've been hanging out with friends more after being a reclused emo for months. Now that I'm a regular on the gay scene again I've noticed that even gay culture is really patriarchal. A lot of gay dudes talk about one of them being "the man" or "the dominant one" in a relationship. Straight people simply imply one partner rules the other, but gay dudes outright state it like it's no problem. It's really weird for me cos I see relationships and/or sex as two people trying to have fun with the other and make sure the other has fun.
And not only are gay men (at least a lot of the ones I seem to hang with) racist, they're quite misogynistic. Fine, they aren't attracted to women or female bits. But calling breasts and vaginas disgusting and saying that women are born to manipulate people is something else entirely. And it's also quite funny cos of the hypocrisy, but they'll sit around complaining (when our les/bi lady friends aren't about) about lesbians being butch, etc. and how lesbians sit around slagging men off. Personally I haven't had that experience with les/bi women, btw.
They also seem to be transphobic. Transmen "look like hairy women" and transwomen are judged on their looks like cis-women are but times 1000. Seriously. Since I have a trans family member this really gets on my tit. Who cares if he (the transman) is short for a man and with boobs or the transwoman is tall, broad-shouldered and doesn't do her make-up properly. It's about what they feel comfy wearing and living as their preferred gendered.
And another thing- gay/bi men can simply be friends without lusting eachother (like how straight men and women can be friends without getting it on). OK, I sleep around. Most of us do. Doesn't mean I wanna sleep with you or date you, not even if I've slept with you before. And I must be the only one who brings condoms. WTF? I'm the youngest in my group of homo homies but only I bring protection, know when to stop drinking, and that no means NO, etc.
Anyone else here had this kind of experience with gay culture? The racism in gay culture exists in the US, as others have pointed out. So I wonder if the misogyny, transphobia, etc also exists in the gay culture of other nations (I'm from the UK, specifically the West Country).
The name's Axel. Wanna check out Aim 4 The Head, my Zombie Apocalypse spoof comic?: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=138048
Writer, Artist, Ignored
I have long come to understand that being something different or progressive in one respect does not mean you are in all respects.
Besides, cultural indoctrination and being raised by awful people is a difficult thing to just shake off. Just because some folks are homosexual doesn't mean they suddenly forgotten or renounced all the ways society has reinforced certain roles. That is much harder. So of course if some were raised with certain negative attitudes towards trans folks, women, and even themselves, then odds are these attitudes will persist until they are educated better and the education sticks or they die.
The Blog The Art
A procrastination in of itself
It may be a West Country thing, you're still pretty rural and isolated out there, it along with East Anglia are pretty much the British version of The South (with the joke for Norfolk being that it's not a Norfolk wedding without "a speech from the father of the bride and groom"). The London scene is pretty understanding, though I've seen a fair amount of BDSM stuff it's all consensual domination.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Unreasonably Quirky
You know, I hang out on a lot of pop music forums, several of which are predominately composed of gay men. I've seen some of them address misogyny among gay men, but I've also heard a lot of them talk about being mistreated by straight women.
They've talked about being catfished for nudes on Grindr, being touched without their consent, being treated like accessories... hell, gay bars are apparently a popular location for bachelorette parties.
As a gay man, have you had any experience with that kind of thing? I'm wondering how much of the misogyny stems from cultural learning and how much of it stems from bad experiences.
I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.
A procrastination in of itself
I'm not gay but my best uni friend has made complaints of that nature before. We went out once to a club and a women there randomly ground up against him and when he went "WTF?" she responded "what are you like gay or something?" Then stormed off when he responded that he was.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A nice butterfly
If someone was grinding up against me, Club or not, I would assume they got a ketchup stain they wanna get rid of. Or they need to learn to scratch themselves.
I am not good at clubs. I basically keep my grinding to MM Os
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Women hunting a gay BFF is a long and storied cliché.
The general consensus I've managed to find with for why gay men are eagerly sought after by women is that a gay man is the only platonic friend they're really allowed to have, societally.
A truly platonic Male/Female relationship is difficult because of sexual expectations. The obvious being between the man and woman; there are so many dangers that one party or the other might only be faking the platonic relationship in the hopes of getting the other into bed and/or a relationship down the road. While this most commonly seems to happen with men faking friendship to try and seduce women, it does happen the other way around as well, and it ends badly if the other party can't learn to respect friendship.
When a person's been burned by this enough times, it gets hard to trust, so even if both parties are entirely genuine, there can still be suspicions and paranoia about the other party, and you find yourself constantly judging every word and action, looking for hidden meanings or clues that the other person is planning something. Even moreso if you've been raped by a "friend" before. It makes the relationship unpleasant.
But it doesn't stop there. The rest of the world judges you too. I cannot count the number of times my BFF and I have been out and about and people immediately assumed we were a couple, and there is no amount of denying that will change their minds. Even our parents and other friends assume we're f*cking, even when we tell them we're not. You might both be completely comfortable in a platonic relationship and still be made to feel awkward and uncomfortable every time you set foot out the door together.
Female/Female friendships seem to be just as hard in different ways. Societally, we raise men and women to be suspicious of women. These are the messages our children are bombarded with: women are liars, tricksters, manipulators. They play hard to get, they play mind games, they fake friendships for social advantages, they date men for money or status and thus must be earned. Men are warriors, women are spies. Men conquer, women gather intelligence. Men pillage, women steal. Men fight with fists, women fight with words. Men use big, blunt, explosive weapons and charge into battle, women slip around acrobatically and strike with a knife in the dark when you weren't looking.
The overarching message is clear: women Must. Not. Be. Trusted. This message informs much of the misogyny in our society, and it hits women just as hard as it hits men. It's common knowledge in the Guy Code that women don't have friendships, they have temporary alliances, and this is the reason for it. It's ultimately self-fulfilling; women have trouble making meaningful relationships with other women because they, like men, assume the other woman is a liar, a cheat, a manipulator, a backstabber, etc. and in the act of protecting themselves from the perceived threat, may be forced to lie, cheat, and manipulate.
So if you can't be friends with men and you can't be friends with women, what does that leave? Well, gay men. A gay man comes with no risk of ulterior motives - unless he's a straight man faking it, but that's just another reason to be wary of straight guys. He's male, so he's not immediately assumed to be a lying, manipulative schemer in general, and he's gay, so he won't become a lying, manipulative schemer to get you in bed, and if he's flamboyant, you don't even need to worry about assumptions made by the people around you. He's perfect.
Of course, this results in a problem for gay men, because they are now objectified and hunted by women as a consequence of what they are rather than who they are, in much the same way women are objectified and hunted by men. This can force gay men into the same corner: they can't be friends with straight guys because straight guys hate them, and they can't be friends with women because women objectify and abuse them.
edited 30th Jul '15 10:45:14 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
I've never seen the issue with women friendships. Sure, in high school there's a lot of backstabbing, but basically after that point you grow out of it and get over it. I don't think i've really seen it as a meme (except deliberately invoked by misogynists).
Unreasonably Quirky
(Sorry, I had to.)
I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.
A procrastination in of itself
I still here about it from a fair number of grown women, though I've run into stupid petty word fighting from grown men as well.
Yeah holding down a platonic guy-girl friendship is hard, even if the two of you get it and understand each other it can cause issues, especially if you've grown up together and are used to behaving in a particular way. My current gilrfreind is fine with me and my best friend's friendship but we've run into issues with both my last girlfriend, her last boyfriend and her current guy, and that's before getting into the assumptions that strangers make.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Jupiterian Local
The insistence that all relationships must be sexual unless there's an Incompatible Orientation involved (or they're family — thus Like Brother and Sister) is one of the problems with societal expectations for men. Given that men are expected to be constantly having as much sex with as many people as possible, the lack of platonic relationships becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Platonic relationships don't happen because everyone knows that men are just after sex, and everyone knows that men are just after sex because platonic relationships don't happen.
If we want to solve that problem, then we have to get past the idea that All Men Are Perverts. Once men are no longer expected to be having sex at every opportunity, then that leaves room for, you know, actual emotional relationships.
edited 30th Jul '15 11:58:25 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Nameless Hero
Maybe it is a country bumpkin thing. I never got into the gay scene in London cos I was still closeted while living there and very homophobic/in denial HARD.
And yeah, women can be VERY pushy. Way more women than men have pushed me into sex or at least groping, grinding, etc. That's partly my silly fault for bending to pier pressure plus I seem to have the bad luck of being the youngest in any group of buddies (I'm 25, my friends are 33 or older- up to 45). Straight and gay men are over-sexualised, but bisexual men and women are sexualised WAY more than straight or gay members of their gender. Seriously, the number of times I've turned down a man or woman and they've said (paraphrasing of course) "But you're bi. How could you not find me sexy?". Sheesh. I'd be better of gay XD.
And I totally get that minority/persecuted groups can be bigoted themselves. I get that it happens and why. But it just doesn't make sense to me personally. Like, I can't wrap my head round it. And while my straight and lesbian friends have got the message that I'm not gay or straight, I'm bi, my gay (male) friends still insist I'm gay but in denial. How dare they. It's not even funny anymore, it's offensive. I never doubted their being gay. I need more bi friends, they're the only ones who take me at me word without doubting me or pushing me into a category. Hell, even my homophobic parents understand it and (grudgingly) accept it.
Sorry everyone for the rant but the gay scene has been getting on my tit for ages now.
The name's Axel. Wanna check out Aim 4 The Head, my Zombie Apocalypse spoof comic?: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=138048
No, the other one.
People don't stop being bigots because they belong to some kind of minority. I wonder if that would even make more of them bigots, due to encountering bigotry more often and more personally, or if it's just more noticeable.
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A procrastination in of itself
The bi scene isn't helped by the fact that a lot of gay people use being bi as a transition from being strait to being gay. They come out as bi then later come out as gay, that and there's still the "greedy" myth.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A nice butterfly
My brother (who is gay) is (I do not think) mysoginistic but he is like a magnet to crazy ladies (not the kind who flirt to him and grind up to him. Just generally batshit insane).
I wonder how he keeps sane.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Queen of Good Things, Honest
The same way anyone from a minority group can have prejudice against their own group, they can also have prejudice against other groups.
V
Bisexual erasure
is the term everybody appears to be looking for.
A nice butterfly
But that also pits Bisexuals as omnisexuals because that implies that bisexuals AAAAAAAAAAAAALWAYS THEY WANT TO BEEEEEEEEEE WITH YOU AND MAKE BELIEEEEEEEEEEEEVE WITH YOU
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
No, the other one.
I think the make-believe is in the eyes of the beholder.
Check out my fanfiction!
Women have fought for the right to choose to be warriors, not to be forced by society to become disposable warriors. that's exactly the taking of the good part and the leaving behind of the bad part that I was talking about.
It is a tangible thing, it's not a secret council but instead its a set of ideas and roles put forward that benefit a small elite, that elite are very real and while they aren't the nobility of old that they used to be they are still very existent.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran