Sexism and Men's Issues

To be honest exceptions like that are incredibly rare (and slightly questionable, in that it may be a healthy relationship now but possibly less so back then) and it's much better to just disallow an age gap so large.

[EDIT] Wow another page-topper.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:07:20 PM by VincentQuill

She is the exception I am talking about. And I get if she is in her 50s now, then it was a pretty different time.

I am a parent. My son's father was four years older than me. I actually sought out an older guy who wasn't too much older, but I had hoped that he was grown up enough to be up front with me and direct about our relationship. Yeah, jokes on me there. (Joke was on him when we went to court too. I was 18 when we started dating, he was 23.)

I'm not opposed to my son having sex. I am opposed to my son having sex dangerously. To me, an age gap like that is beyond fucking dangerous and if that person really loved my kid, they can wait forever for him, but even then I would have a hard time believing they really sincerely loved my kid.

13? That's not even high school! What are you going to do, watch pokemon together?! Go shopping for your kids and your spouse in the same kiddie section? Fuck that noise.

If my kid is 15 and really feels like he's man enough to be sexually active, he can pick someone his own age.

And if he gets someone pregnant or is called out as the father, he will be there until a DNA test clears him or he legally signs over his rights.

"But Gabrael, how will you enforce that? You can't make him!"

Nope, but I can pay for a lawyer to sue him for paternity. And for the sake of the kid, I will without hesitation.

Either 13 or 14.

And yes, as I said, this case is the exact reason I am usually uncomfortable about this topic. I don't want to invalidate my friend's opinion, but there's no way I can be okay with what she, her parents, and her lover did.

The seventies for sure. The eldest of her children is older than I am. The youngest is just starting college.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:18:43 PM by KingZeal

There's no good reason to be dating kids that young if you're a man with children older than her. None at all. Let alone have sex with them.

That she says everything was fine and they were happy just makes me feel more uneasy about it, it's easy to mold people that young into whatever you want and trick them into thinking they're happy.

Something very fucked up was definitely happening there.

Exactly

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:21:30 PM by LeGarcon

Sounds a bit like pedo-grooming to me.

Oh I'm aware. She swears that he was against the relationship at first, though, and that she went to her parents to tell them about her attraction to him.

She's literally the only side of this story that I've heard, so there's no way I can ever know the true facts of it.

EDIT: Also, "dating" isn't the exact words for it. As far as I know, there was never any pretenses that they would ever become a committed romantic couple. She still dated other boys.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:25:48 PM by KingZeal

That's... not sounding any better. -_- Also, to have the parents on board with all that sounds fishy, too. <_<

Yes, thus why I'm asking for help. This has been bugging me for years.

The fact that we say mentally developed children are exceptions is already an alarming sign of a larger problem.

And that problem is flatout refusing to treat children like people, rather than cute objects of protection. That is why a child doing adult things is so "uneasy". It contrasts that little fantasy of innocent cuddly children. Same reason every anti-bullying effort constructed by adults is always an embarrassing disaster. It's, dare I say, systemic denial of sapience.

If a child developed concrete understanding on how to separate their true feelings from manipulation(that is, if "concrete" is defined as somewhat equal to that of an adult), the response shouldn't be "oh, that's an exception, go away". It should be "Fuck to the yeah, let's have more of those. How do we do that?".

If Zeal's example applied to most children, as it applies to most adults, we would not be having this discussion.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:34:35 PM by Luminosity

If anything Zeal's example is a perfect reason why children need to be protected. The man was obviously a predator who was using her and grooming her to be some happy little wife of his and she completely fell for it.

Although it does lead to the idea of a qualified Age of Consent, where a person might have to take a Test to be allowed legally to have sex — is that a good idea?

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:36:51 PM by Greenmantle

Pedophiles are known to be rather good at manipulating (e.i. grooming) children into thinking they want something like this. That's it's good for them. Not realising the harm that's being done to them. It's what they do. Most self-centered sociopaths are good at this.

Hell, that's basically the excuse the always put up when conforted with their crimes. "But how can it be rape if s/he wanted it. S/he initiated it for Christ's sake!"

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:39:14 PM by LogoP

I don't know about making someone pass a test to give them the right to have sex, that's a little unreasonable and how would you even enforce that.

I do know that if anyone tried the crap Zeal described with my child, it would be a great show of my self discipline to bring them to the cops alive instead of in pieces.

The problem is that every time I nudge a conversation toward that conclusion, my friend gently and very sweetly refutes me. To her, she is convinced that she wanted the relationship from the beginning. She is actually a committed feminist and sex-work advocate currently. And no, I don't mean one of those Christine Hoff-Summers style of feminists who basically parrot MRA ideology.

She's also very aware of how people outside her friends and family would think of this.

EDIT: Okay, you know what, I'm stopping here. This entire topic is starting to depress me and creep me the fuck out, not the least of which because I'm defending her position and I really don't want to. So sorry, I'm gonna cut out here.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:46:42 PM by KingZeal

If you asked any 13 year old, they are 100% totally sure that they absolutely totally love and will never ever regret that sweet Justin Biebs tattoo on their back because he will last forever.

Easier to think she was right than to admit she might have been a victim.

Indeed, we already have enough aspects of our lives ruined forever by tests.

My point is, a child possessing understanding of the situation rivaling that of an adult is an awesome thing that should be replicated, not an uncomfortable "exception" to be tucked away because reality is harsh. More aware children would be better at recognizing when they're being manipulated and resisting that.

People say "pedophiles prey on easily manipulatable children" and then they argue their best to maintain a system that keeps children easily manipulatable. Because that's easier than to confront the reality of the situation.

Children are never going to fully understand the nuances of being manipulated, hell most adults don't.

Zeal's friend obviously didn't understand the situation, she's a perfect example of how well pedophiles manipulate children.

He convinced her to enter a sexual relationship with him at 13 and so thoroughly groomed her that she still doesn't understand when she's in her 50s.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:52:17 PM by LeGarcon

And yet, according to her, she was the one who made the first move, that he was reluctant/unwilling to date her, and that she ended up becoming a feminist and a fairly strong person, considering the causes she works for.

Don't make such an assumption. 'Obviously'? This is a complex situation, don't go all Chris Hansen on him.

But then when you find children who do, you deny their existence.

You don't even know this person and yet you deny them a sound mind. Did it ever occur to you that you might be the wrong one? That you're "obviously" in denial?

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:53:35 PM by Luminosity

Forgive me if I'm a bit hesitant to think a 13 year old girl is the right state of mind entering a sexual relationship with a man who has children of his own older than she is. This isn't an uncommon scenario, it's textbook predatory behavior and conditioning.

The problem with that though is that it leads to the decision of "if they prove capable as adults, do they get adult rights?"

And again, as a mom, I will say no.

Look, I was a bright kid. I had teachers telling me I needed to be bumped up grades. I was pretty mature. By the time I was my son's age, I was taking care of the house and my 2 year old brother while my parents worked.

But that's wrong.

Just because a kid has the maturity to grasp some things doesn't mean that they magically stop being children. You can measure book smarts. I made a perfect score on the ACT. But I didn't have the life experience to back up my intellect and it showed.

Kids need to be kids. By all means, allow them to have the educational opportunities according to their intellect, but they don't get to have adult rights. If nothing else, as many have already pointed out, they physically cannot handle all of the adult rights out there. That's why the drinking age and smoking age is 18-21. That's pretty much the general scientific consensus that the average person can grasp adult responsibilities.

You weren't being hesitant. You were branding him a predator, when she actually took the first step.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:57:37 PM by Quag15

Ultimately the answer to this kind of this is, you guessed it, better sex education along with relationship education. We need to recognise that teenagers have sex, teach them exactly how, teach them the importance of consent, and also teach them how to recognise an abusive relationship or manipulation. Closing our eyes and pretending it doesn't happen leads to unsafe sex practices and potentially to unhealthy relationships. I think there does need to be some legal guideline for a minimum age-gap for people under 18, but ultimately things should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

Age of consent should be treated practically, like the drinking age. On the continent a lot of countries' legal drinking age is 16 and people develop healthier drinking habits overall. Here in Ireland because of the illegality, one tends to start with a few cans in a field at age 15. Not exactly the best breeding ground for healthy drinking habits. In this way pretending that teenagers don't have sex leads to unhealthy sexual practices and potential for unhealthy relationships.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:01:06 PM by VincentQuill

This.

According to her, the 13 year old girl likely having been groomed and manipulated.

I'm sorry but everything Zeal has described and what his friend has described sounds like she was a textbook case of grooming. Frankly that's infinitely more likely to have occurred than for a 13 year old girl and a middle aged man to have had a healthy open and honest sexual and romantic relationship.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:01:51 PM by LeGarcon