MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
After an unfortunate incident in elementary school which I do not remember clearly, my parents taught me very clearly "no means no" and "if she's not interested, back off." (I think I was probably pestering some girl for a kiss without knowing what that actually meant.) A bit later, when I actually started noticing girls, I was told that I needed to be a good person, and eventually "the right kind of woman" would take notice of my sterling qualities and be open to my romantic attentions.
(That never happened.)
I think I did pick up some Nice Guy (tm) mindset, because I was constantly told, "You're a nice guy, but..." If any of those women were "playing hard to get", it certainly backfired, as I was still going with "no means no." Some day I'd like to know what "yes" means. Anyhow, I discarded most of my Nice Guy (tm) mindset once it came to my attention that women don't like it.
Ahr river
At least in my experiences, people say "nice guy" because they have nothing else to say about the person, not because they don't like nice folk.
Damning With Faint Praise and all that.
Read my stories!
The Mod with the Migraine
Wall of Text ahoy!
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
'80s TV Action Hero
That works both ways; it was my wife who asked me out and I who got the choice.
I'll take option B, please.
The thing about being 'nice' is, as was said earlier, if people descrie you as 'nice' it's because they can't think of anything else to call you and that there is basically the kiss of death for your lovev life.
I mean, even I'm nice, in as much as I'm easy to get along with, kind to children and animals etc. etc. blah blah but it isn't enough. You have to be interesting and a bit unique so that potential boot-knockers will want to spend time with you and learn more. I don't mean start wearing ridiculous clothes and acting all 'crazy' and 'random', because 1. that's annoying as fuck and 2. you won't be able to keep it up. You don't have to suddenly start drinking Dos Equis or whatever; just a little bit of life experience (of course, this is difficult when one is young and short on life experience, which is why most teenage boys get precisely no action at all, despite what they may claim) or a slightly unusual hobby or anything, really, can be enough- you just have to be obviously your own person and not just some desperate hanger-on looking for somewhere to deposit his sperm, even at the cost of sacrificing his own seperate identity. So...yeah. Don't be an angler fish.
BUT...still be nice with it. One of the reasons my wife's friends encouraged her to ask me out was because they thought I was genuinely nice. Now, 'genuinely' is the noteworthy part; people can tell when you just want to hump them. Some folk (like me) are okay with that, but a lot of people aren't.
People like nice people; they don't like dishonest people or people who give of the vibe that they're after something, whatever that something is.
The other main reason her friends liked me was because they could tell that I actually like hanging out with women, even when sex isn't on the cards, despite my being a massive poon-hound, as I believe they call it now. As I said before, a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea of someone seeing them primarily as a potential sexual encounter.
Apart from that there was my unusual dress sense ('an Out of Africa vibe' one of them called it) and ribald sense of humour. Those things managed to get me singled out as a desirable match even despite my physique being best described as 'like a slightly taller-than-average hobbit'.
Which is a horrendously long-winded way of saying: be nice, be interesting, but be genuine and you can't go wrong.
'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
Nameless Hero
I never really had "proper, grown-up" relationships in high school, what with intimacy issues and such, and still haven't. Whenever I "got a girl (or guy)" it was usually them who made a move, although I possibly scared off most of the opposite sex cos they'd often be too forceful- unwanted groping, ball-cupping, kissing. That stuff always and sometimes still does set me off. It's called "triggering", right? So, yeah, not many partners beyond sex. Nowadays I only rarely make the move on a woman when my (female) best friend is there to coach me on what to do/not do, otherwise I'll only make the move if it's a dude. Dudes don't scare me so much, as wimpy as that sounds. I don't buy her drinks either cos of the rapey implications- instead we'll buy eachother a drink at the same time, it breaks the ice cos it's such a strange and funny thing to do :P.
As for female friends- it's possible to be friends with chicks without an eventual plan to bed them. A lot of guys I (unfortunately) know would tell me in private about their long-term plan to bed so-and-so and then they'd act like I'm the @$$hole for chewing them out about that kind of attitude, especially if they were trying to creep into the pants of my best friend, knowing full well what she'd gone thru growing up. Probably explains why these guys are friends of friends rather than friends.
edited 26th Sep '14 4:29:42 AM by OdinsLeftEye
The name's Axel. Wanna check out Aim 4 The Head, my Zombie Apocalypse spoof comic?: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=138048
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Idle thought: Men can’t give birth.
Men and women are functionally identical in most ways, save for one: men cannot give birth. It is the one thing that one sex can do, that the other can never do. It is literally the ONLY difference in men and women’s potential capabilities.
Why do we flip out so hard whenever women try to do new things that we’re already doing? Why are we so afraid of female game developers, female breadwinners, female soldiers, female leaders. Why do we try to limit women’s ability to do things they’re fully capable of doing, and claim some biological reason for why women would be bad soldiers or bad businessmen? What, exactly, makes us fight so hard to keep women “in their place” and out of ours?
Men can’t give birth. Is that it? Is that where it comes from? At its core, are we simply desperate to find SOMETHING that only men can do and that women could never do, because we are afraid that if women are able to do all the things men can, AND give birth as well, we will become obsolete?
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
'80s TV Action Hero
Well, if we perfect the artificial womb doesn't that render women obsolete?
'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
The Mistress
Can we not verge into Opression Olympics again? Thanks in advance.
"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
The most basic theory I've heard is that control over women was the only way to defeat cuckoldry before the invention of the paternity test (so, basically, more than 99.9999% of human history). Unless a baby swap happens, a woman knows damn well who the mother of her child is, but men don't have the same luxury. This means that controlling the actions, desires, and mores of women were priority #1 in ensuring that some other guy wasn't leaving his legacy in your family instead of yours.
Some things I've read that kinda back this up are certain hunter-gatherer tribes in the Amazon and Africa that allow women unprecedented freedom...but also have completely untrue notions of parenthood. In particular, one tribe believes that a baby is basically a building block of sperm, so the more men a woman has sex with, the stronger the child is (and thus all the men are considered the "father"). Another tribe sees sex as having nothing to do with pregnancy at all, and say that the husband is always the father even if his wife sleeps around because impregnation is a spiritual connection and not a physical one.
Again, in both of these tribes, women have more sexual freedom than even most "developed" nations, but it's corollary to the man's assurance that he's the "father" of their children no matter how much she sleeps around.
edited 26th Sep '14 10:32:09 AM by KingZeal
A nice butterfly
If we perfect cloning and make clones that can clone themselves we have effectively rendered humanity obsolete!
Now then, I would like to uh. Oddly touch the subject that was being mentioned before. And by touch I do mean it is going to be awkward. After this conversation is done, you will see me at courts at the guilty man's stand while the subject weepingly points at a small doll figure where I touched it innapropriately.
At least it sure fuckin' feels awkward to talk about without thinking of myself as some sort of monumental fuckhole.
The gifts. The presents. The whole courting routing is embellished with serenades, candy, teddy bears, flowers, and all sorts of dilly-dallying that is expected to be showered upon the "Favored" lady. All of this is supposed to come out of the man's pocket. Other examples of this is going out on a date with him being expected to pay for it. Of course, it is nowadays more common to see split bills and such.
But just how...expected and demanded is this of men?
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Party Crasher
Chivarly.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
It depends on the individual and culture. Gender progressives like the idea of splitting or letting the wealthier person pay, no matter which person that is. Gender conservatives like the idea of gentlemen showing courtesy towards the lady he's courting.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
It really depends on the women being courted. There's somewhat of a divide between feminists and traditionalists right now; feminists will typically split the bill, buy gifts too, etc. while traditionalists may be more inclined to say it's the man's responsibility to court her, not the other way around.
Most of the women I know are feminists, but there is one woman I know who believes that it is always a man's responsibility to pay for the woman, but also that she is obligated to have sex with you from the third date onward.
edited 26th Sep '14 10:58:27 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
A nice butterfly
How is it in Eastern culture, out of curiosity? I do not know how it is handled there.
But I was asking for Western culture, I guess.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Party Crasher
It's not about that. When you ask a girl/woman out, well, you must at least try to make a good impression. Being a cheapskate ain't exactly impressive.
Besides, when I go out for dinner with friends once in a while, I always insist on paying the bill. Or at least a part of it. The same applies to relatives and, obviously, dates. It's basic human decency.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm from Greece, which sort of counts as Eastern culture. And Western. And Southern...
edited 26th Sep '14 11:01:02 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Opression olympics? Inverurie Jones just made a statement that reduced women to their reproductive role for society. But without that role they would still practically have all the other roles males have. And no one would say males are obsolete (apart from some fringe, radfem nutters).
. There, the child is simply reared by the maternal family and fatherhood isn't that important because men aren't responsible for the kids they sired but for their sisters children. This doesn't just lead to more female sexual freedom but male sexual freedom as well.
A nice butterfly
To impress? To...awe? That feels kinda. uh. Weird to me.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Party Crasher
Not to awe. To make a sweet first impression. Act with courtesy. There's a difference.
For what's worth, here in Greece women are usually expected to return the favour in the second date.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
A nice butterfly
Mmm. Guess I just live on a much more conservative country, so it is rare for me to see that. Even imagine it.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Party Crasher
You can't get any more conservative than Helladistan but whatever.
Out of curiosity, where do you live?
A nice butterfly
It is on my troper page. Costa Rica.
edited 26th Sep '14 11:13:30 AM by Aszur
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Party Crasher
The Happiest Place on Earth!
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Interestingly, my most recent subject of research is gender roles in Latin America.
Regarding the "what are men taught about getting a girlfriend" question, I can only speak from personal experience, but the answer is "not much". I certainly never got any explicit advice — either from friends or family or whoever — about "how to get a girl". Of course, I'm not exactly a typical case. I specifically didn't want a girlfriend in highschool (because the whole "who's dating who" thing was an enormous part of the social status game that I had no interest in playing), and even since then (I'm 28, for the record) I haven't exactly had an active romantic life. Generally, my problem was the opposite from the "won't take no for an answer" thing — I'm so careful about not being that guy, that I tend not to express open interest in someone until I see someone else flirting with them or something and making me jealous. Half the time I don't even realize I am interested in her until I realize I'm jealous. That's usually when I stop being stupid about it and ask her out.
Hm, maybe that's what I was taught, if unconsciously, about dating. You're only allowed to express interest — she gets to decide if you actually go out or not. I was also taught (and this explicitly, if not in exactly so many words) that you should have sex with someone you love, not go around fucking anyone and everyone who'll let you. My family was religious growing up, but not hardcore about it (we went to church and it was a big part of our social circle, but religion largely didn't come up outside of those occasions, and when I realized at some point during high school that I didn't actually believe in God, it wasn't a big deal), so it wasn't a "sex before marriage is a sin" sort of thing, it was just the idea that sex can have repercussions (STDs, pregnancy, etc), so you're better off doing it with someone you'd be willing to deal with those repercussions with.
Regarding "Nice Guy" behavior, can I just say I fucking hate that terminology? Saying "I'm friendly toward you, therefore you owe me something" is not nice guy behavior. It pisses me off to no end that "Nice Guy" behavior is held up as evidence that All Girls Want Bad Boys and Nice Guys Finish Last (ie "Nice Guys don't get laid, and guys who don't get laid are failures, therefore Nice Guys are failures, therefore you should be an asshole"). Fuck that noise so much, seriously.
edited 25th Sep '14 7:38:33 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.