Sexism

And I am speaking solely about a field in which case all reasons can be neatly laid down and addressed. Not "in the hallway!" More of the inclusion of such a point in an essay or some such as opposed to something else.

There are different cases, but I am thinking solely of such an environment as a paper or a formal debate. Which I should have specified in the past.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:54:41 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

In ways that are often inconsistent, for that matter.

That doesn't make any sense. If something's an insult... it's an insult.

Equality seems like a pretty shaky concept in general, but especially so when applied to language.

Besides, what if people use it as a way to demean those individuals who are promoting inequalities?

Mostly because the average person on this site seems to argue too hard that they are. I'm trying to provide some extra dissent here.

In this case, I wasn't saying it wasn't sexist at all, just not "demeaning to women everywhere."

EDITED IN: Aondeug, bear in mind that I was referring to a conversation that started with the "can and is used towards males" wording, which made it seem like you were referring to all contexts put together, not a subset of them.

Not me. I don't have many friends in the first place, but the way I see it, if you say what you mean, and mean what you say, then it won't make any difference whether you're talking to your friends or to strangers.

edited 5th Jun '12 4:04:56 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Well in a context where "bitch" is being used totally interchangably with bastard, it's not really an insult to all women everywhere.

"What an insufferable bitch!"/"What an insufferable bastard!"

...in a case like that, where you're just grabbing one word or the other based on the target's gender, whatever, you're not really insulting women generally, except for the fact that the word "bitch" often is used to insult women in general and you're using it anyway.

Most usage of "bitch," though seems to mean either, "weak and whiny, like a woman." if its used in reference to a man or "emotional and irrational, like a woman," if used in reference to a woman. It's definitely insulting women in general when used in that way.

Hence my statement that I should have clarified what I meant in terms of a potential argument.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

"Like a woman" isn't implied by use of one particular word, though.

Got it, then. I was just clarifying why I responded the way I did.

edited 5th Jun '12 4:10:11 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Look, white guys can't go around calling black guys nigger, due to the historical context of it being an insult meant to demean and belittle black men. That's not exactly inconsistent. There's a socio-historical context to it.

Also, as regards the sexist thing; when an thing is meant to hinder only one gender, and it affects mostly only one gender, it's sexist. "Bitch" in this case is meant to belittle strong women, womanly behavior, and what is perceived as womanly quite often. Basically, what Paul 3 said. It's fine to provide dissent, but you nearly never provide any argument besides "that's not necessarily sexist". You need something to back it up.

There are also differing levels of insult. Which you find out by interacting with people. Friends can and will insult each other all the time, but it's different from when a stranger does it. My brother's friends did it with each other all the time, but no one took insult because they knew each other too well to really take offense. Like I said, context is important. Who it's coming from, and who it's aimed at.

Except that if a black guy says it, and that's okay, then it's not about the word itself but the race of the person using it. It's not inconsistent, but race is part of the criteria.

It affects the sexes in different ways, though. As has been said in this thread, it's also used on men who are too effeminate. Who's to say whether that's better or worse than the contexts in which it's applied to women?

Except that in this case, "that's not necessarily sexist" isn't even what I was arguing.

edited 5th Jun '12 4:24:48 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

"Like a woman" isn't implied by use of one particular word, though.

Yes it is. Remember the part where the word we're talking about is a gendered insult?

Gendered in origin, and often gendered in practice, but not gendered in that particular context or else it wouldn't have been applied to a man in the first place.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Gendered in origin, and often gendered in practice, but not gendered in that particular context or else it wouldn't have been applied to a man in the first place.

...unless the intent was to insult him by implying he has womanly qualities.

Of course, when "Bitch" got verbed (as in "to bitch" about something), it sorta becomes gender-neutral as far as I've seen. "You're just bitching" seems to be used across the board for someone who is complaining in a useless and/or annoying fashion.

I guess my take is; the words don't really matter, its the intent behind them. I can imply that someone is inferior because of their race/creed/gender just using words that would slip past any censor, and I can call someone a bitch without insulting them (I work construction, this happens all the time).

Sure sexism is a thing, but from what I've seen the former example I just gave is far more common than people out-and-out saying, "you dumb bitch/cunt/nigger" or what have you. Which is why I wish we'd stop worrying so much about word choice. If someone's going to insult me, I'd rather they be direct about it.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Drunk, last page I gave a pretty concrete example of why the specific word DOES matter.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Doesn't seem pretty concrete to me. Using different words still means the intent is there.

Besides, the definition of "Bitch" is kinda slippery; it can mean "weak and whiny" or "inflexible and domineering" depending on the circumstances.

Basically what I'm saying is; if your intent is to insult or demean someone, you can do it no matter what words you use. Taking issue with word choice at that point is kind of like taking issue with what brand of gun someone just used to shoot you in the face.

EDIT: I totally do, if people would just stop bitching about it.

edited 5th Jun '12 6:21:51 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

So nobody thinks that the word "bitch" will eventually transform in the same manner as "badass"?

...drunk that was amazing.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

@Aon: what can I say, I'm the bitchiest bitch to ever bitch about bitching.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

If my theoretical complainer had said "asshole" instead of "bitch", (s)he wouldn't be reinforcing the idea that women shouldn't be assertive, (s)he would just be complaining.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

@BH: So, calling someone an asshole is better than calling them a bitch? I'll have to remember that.

Missing the point, you are. When someone wants to insult a person, they want to hurt them, degrade them, humiliate them in front of bystanders. So they choose words designed to have that effect. But, communication is a two-way street; the speaker makes words and the listener chooses how to interpret the meaning, based off a set of parameters that's far too complicated to go into here. But that act is a choice, and the targeted individual does have the right to creative interpretation.

When someone throws invective at you, they're also tossing material to you. Call me a bitch? Yes, I am a woman with hard-ass ideals who won't take your shit and smile, what of it?

Call me a motherfucker? I have fucked some mothers in my time, why do you think they are mothers? Hey, I'm suddenly more virile than my insulter.

Call a woman a cunt? Her response ought to be "yes, I have one, and you ain't getting in it." With proper delivery of such a phrase, suddenly the whole conversational dialogue is different.

Insults are part of the raw material that is self-image, if one is perceptive enough to grasp the utility. Take that insult, love it and own it, and suddenly you aren't an oppressed minority, you are an exclusive club.

edited 5th Jun '12 7:21:26 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I have to kind of join the head-shaking bandwagon here and wonder why we're getting heated over when and where we can use an insult to insult someone.

People say "bitch" all the time, it doesn't make them women-hating bastards, it makes them humans who use words as a non-physical form of attacking someone, just like everyone else. I still don't see why we get upset over certain cuss words yet still think it's acceptable to call someone dumb, an idiot, a moron, or a bigot.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

Agreed. Isn't calling someone a "moron" technically insensitive to people with Down's Syndrome?

edited 5th Jun '12 7:27:55 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Long story short, if you're going to try and take away one insulting word, you have to take away them all, up to the point where no one is allowed to express negative feelings vocally.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

Again, context. Drunk, I think you're overestimating how hurtful sexist slurs can be, and how effectively some people can counter them. I know we'd all love to be able to come up with snappy counters to everything thrown our way, but sometimes we're just caught off guard, or the jackass is cleverer than us with words. Not to mention that responding quite often encourages the jackass to keep pursuing you when perhaps you don't feel safe in their presence, so provoking them seems like a really bad idea.

In short, words can and DO hurt. A whole hell of a lot.

Ahahahaha. Yeah, not going to happen. Sexist slurs will continue to exist as long as sexism exists, and words are always going to have different meaning depending on context.

edited 5th Jun '12 7:32:58 PM by AceofSpades

Well again it depends on how words are used, but if you actually measure by that then people call you on a double standard because it's okay to say bitch one time and not another.

Like there's the cool assertive bitch and then the not cool bitch. The cool bitch is okay but the not cool bitch isn't really, but you can't really stop people from saying it, so...

Yeah, now it's you who is missing the point, Drunk.

Yes, if someone calls you someone nasty you *can* choose how you react to it. And what does that matter? It's not okay to call black people niggers just because some of them will be able to take it in stride.

I thought this was a conversation about "is it okay to call women bitches?" not about "what should women do when you call them bitches?"

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Well, it's supposed to be about sexism in general, but seems to have gone off on the tangent of what is and is not a sexist slur and why is it sexist if so?