Does it ever get used outside of Heinlein? If not, maybe the info can be moved to the Creator page for him.
Lost in Space
It's already discussed extensively there and on the works pages we have for two of the three novels. I have no idea if anyone but Heinlein ever used that specific concept by that name. It also has an entry in both Mutually Fictional and Recursive Canon.
The new article feed seems to think it was created today, maybe by the same person who made a stub for The Cat Who Walks Through Walls? Hmm, impossible to tell with the current system.
edited 23rd May '12 12:31:12 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
I'd like some more input. I think we should cut this. Any other opinions?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Errr...was this created about a specific author? The way it is right now, it looks more like analysis on Heinlein rather than a trope.
edited 24th May '12 11:26:47 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Lost in Space
Yeah, that's what I think. Someone misunderstood the nature of the Settings index.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Doesn't seem to be hurting anything. People who talk about SF do refer to "World as Myth" when talking about this idea.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Lost in Space
Really? I didn't know that. I just feel that it's not actually a trope — we have it covered under Mutually Fictional.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I think it should be moved into a section relevant to the author though. It seems far too specific for Main/
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Lost in Space
Like I said, it's already mentioned in the Robert A Heinlein article, the Mutually Fictional and Recursive Canon tropes, and each of the work pages that contain the concept. My concern is not that it's not real, but that it is Too Specific To Trope.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
It defines the term. One that you find a lot, as you point out, even here.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Lost in Space
Well, are there any authors besides Heinlein that make specific reference to it? I mean, even if it is a trope as we define it, it needs some YKTTW-style lovin' to pick up examples from more than just the one author.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
This could work well enough as an exampleless definition page. "Here's what this outside term means, and here are a links to relevant tropes with examples."
Lost in Space
Which is what I did. So we're saying it's fine as is? I can accept that.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
^^ Yes, other authors refer to it. The definition-only thing works.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
I don't think it's the same as Mutually Fictional. Mutually Fictional is a crossover trope when a fictional world turns out to be real, and in that world, they think that our world is fictional. The World as Myth is the idea that all fiction ever written is true in some alternate universe out there in the multiverse.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Lost in Space
The World as Myth is the ultimate logical extension of Mutually Fictional — all worlds are equally fictional, including the one we're in.
edited 24th May '12 1:14:56 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The "equally fictional" thing is the Fiction Identity Postulate, which says that since no fiction is real, all fiction is therefore equally real by way of not being real at all. Mutually Fictional is the one where for us, unicorns are a myth, but in the Land of Unicorns, they tell stories about our world.
The World as Myth is where all fiction is real in some alternate universe; those universes don't necessarily have to believe our world is fictional, so it's not really an extension of Mutually Fictional.
edited 24th May '12 1:38:05 PM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
I agree that it does not belong in main—could the discussion of it go on an analysis page? There are quite a few The World as Myth Wicks now, so my only issue would be the redlink cleanup.
Doodles
Lost in Space
Bump. Where, if anywhere, does this belong if not Main? Is it a setting trope? A 'verse?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I suspect it's a setting trope. Can't think of any actual examples, personally. It probably ought to go through YKTTW.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Lost in Space
Since we haven't gotten much commentary on this, I hooked a Page Action crowner.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
We are at +9 (11 to 2) in favor of YKTTW. Someone added a "keep as exampleless definition page" as a new option so that may need to pick up votes from the people who already voted on the other options.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Well, YKTTW is winning. I'll call the crowner but we need a volunteer to YKTTW it. I'm not really big into YKTTW these days.
If nobody wants to do it then the default would be to leave it as-is. I'm fine with that.
edited 12th Jun '12 2:27:02 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Eh...I haven't read Heinlein, but I think I have enough of a sense of what it's trying to be that I could sponsor it. Big question is whether or not it's Too Rare To Trope, and I haven't seen it enough to personally vouch for it on that front.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Crown Description:
This trope article is ambiguously defined. It doesn't fit the definition of the Settings index on which it is placed, nor does it fit the definition of The Verse as it exclusively references three novels written by a single author. The concept itself is valid, and has been referenced in other works and by other authors. It bears enough distinction from Mutually Fictional, Recursive Canon, and similar tropes that it might stand on its own, but it needs more work in this regard.
Someone launched a trope article without YKTTW for The World as Myth, and indexed it in Settings. Now, I love me some Robert A Heinlein, and I'll stipulate that he practically invented a great many science fiction tropes, but this is not a trope. I took the stub article and expanded it a bit, but really it's not in the right place at all.
It's either an example of The 'Verse, which is a bit misleading since it was only ever used in three novels at the end of Heinlein's career, or it is a conceptual duplicate of Mutually Fictional and/or Recursive Canon, both of which it is an example of. It also doesn't belong in Settings because that's an index of setting tropes, not specific settings like Velgarth or Middle-Earth.
In short, someone did not do their homework here and now we have to fix it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"