The Watering-Down of YA Lit (Development)

When I talk about blood and gore, I don't mean Hunger Games-esque gladiator games or video game style cartoonish nonsense, I mean writing about a version of World War I where men are vaporized by machine gun fire in platoon-sized clusters. That particular work is my main project, and being that it shoots for situational realism the violence is visceral and unforgiving. I don't have action in that story because it's cool, I have it to make a point.

That's because YA is the literary equivalent of summer action films.

~shrug~

I'm doing dystopian fiction about a setting where the slaughter of a half million soldiers isn't a tragedy, it's a victory. I think I'm not the one to be doing that.

Well, when I say politics I don't mean the king's court and his scheming underlings. Such is far too overt to me. However, most kids I know have no care for politics.

~shrug~

I think one thing I find really odd about the YA classification is the age group at which it is supposedly aimed. It's meant to be for "young adults", meaning teenagers, presumably, but there are many YA books that are perfectly fine and even quite popular reading material for much younger kids. Meanwhile, most of the teenagers I know, as well as reading YA material, also read things like Discworld and The Hitchiker's Guide that are explicitly considered to be for adults.

I hold the view that young adults are somewhat mature enough to read books with adult themes (provided they're not heavy-handed), so the whole target demographic is hackneyed anyway.

One thing to remember is that you should never underestimate the intelligence and learning capacity of your readers. Kids nowadays mature very fast.

edited 9th May '12 9:14:35 AM by Nightwire

So much truth right there

Hey, what are your thoughts on this post? She goes into the whole gender and Double Standard issue on the reader's side (ie, middle-aged woman thinking that male love interests are cute).

On the other hand, she crossed a line in an earlier point by being malicious and stereotyping book bloggers, but this is an interesting issue to consider.

EDIT: Hmm...I really need to consider the central points concerning YA and its merit:

• Is YA watered-down?
• Is it harmful to present watered-down YA?
• What should be encouraged in the mainstream?
• How should trends be presented?
• How should romance in YA be presented?
• How should cursing/drugs/violence/sex be presented in YA?
• What kind of merit do mindless and mindful entertainment have?
• What limits should be made in the "cleanness vs. edginess" spectrum?
• What chances do you think should be made on the publishing side of YA? What kind of compromise can be made to fix any problems present in YA?

It's a rough list, but I'm still brainstorming a list of problems to center the blog series around.

Also, one thing to consider that it's bad if we all go in one direction. An extremely dark work with little or no idealism doesn't make a fun story, regardless of demographic. There's that larger-than-life element to it, and the fact that some people just like an entertaining story.

EDIT 2: And here's another issue to consider?

• How do reluctant readers factor into the equation, compared to avid readers?
• Where and when is it okay to have a mindless yet entertaining YA? (IE, Daniel X).
• What are the dividing lines between YA, MG, and children's literature. How should intelligence be handled differently between these three demographics?

edited 9th May '12 9:41:47 AM by chihuahua0

I think you kind of switched around her point.

Aggressive, but it's still something to consider, but she does consider the issue from the opposite viewpoint.

What do you think of these points?

edited 9th May '12 9:44:47 AM by chihuahua0

Not to mention the fact that all teenagers are getting themselves familiar to so-called "grown-up" literature (since it's part of the official course) anyway, so it's pretty silly to pinpoint what kind of fiction young adults should read.

edited 9th May '12 9:49:32 AM by Nightwire

On those two points I have to say this. Keep looking. I refuse to believe every story revolves around those. If you don't want to read a story about a sexy guy, then go look for another book and vice versa. That being said, if every book in the YA group has the same thing, then it is pretty much a failure of some sort (whether it was the publishers who chose to publish it, the writers who chose to write the same thing, or even some other force) and only brings ill towards the future of it.

Maybe people should look for feedback from people.

then again, so far I think my story falls under categories I am arguing against. I really hope I am just being paranoid though.

In terms of what they should read. Let us read what we want to read. I admit the first section I look at at Barnes and Noble is the YA section, but if I can't find anything that catches my eye, then I will go to the regular fantasy/science fiction section. Now I don't want the YA genre to be the type that makes people go to other genres to find better books, I do want it to be able to stand on itself without being ridiculous. But remember, some people are really desperate, some people are really confused. The reason people join cults is because they are trying to find answers to questions that aren't easy. I'm not saying all people are like that, but some are. YA fiction is usually a Coming of Age Story, which is why it is suppose to relate to its audience. Though it isn't as though they always do their job properly. Then again all genres have things that aren't good.

And besides, if we can't find any we like, we can become inclined to write our own. That's always a plus. :)

edited 9th May '12 10:30:56 AM by Ralanr

Indeed. If Catcher in the Rye is part of the standard high school curriculum, what's wrong with teens reading books with sexual themes?

Agreed. People tend to judge the genre by the few very well-known books and ignore all the others that don't fit their steryotype.

While this is normally an attitude I support, I'm not really sure how much sense it makes here, because "YA literature" is essentially a marketing scheme, not a true genre. So when you want to "do it better yourself", what would you actually be writing?

Edit: Come to think of it, actually, is there even really such a thing as YA literature? It exists pretty much only because people say it exists.

edited 9th May '12 11:10:29 AM by nrjxll

I never meant do it better yourself. Who the hell thinks they will write a best seller on their first try?

Quite a few people, actually (of course, the overwhelming majority of them are wrong). Although how well a book sells isn't remotely a signifier of whether it's "better".

However, that's not my real point. The main question is why and how you would be "writing YA" when it's basically just a marketing concept.

Usually it involves characters of a certain age and the story being a Coming of Age Story. Though I could be wrong since I am not an expert.

This. This so much. I couldn't care less whether or not a character is a good "role model" I just want to read about a character who's cool and interesting. I want my badass Anti Heroine's dammit.

This too. Why can't we have more witty, flippant, action girl leads? They can still have their emotional turmoil, angst, and internal conflicts, just give them an actual personality. And while we're at it, why do they need a man to deal with emotional problems? Why not have it be another woman instead? It doesn't have to be romantic in nature (thought it would be much preferred), but putting more emphasis on female/female relationships (romantic or not) would be very welcomed.

I think of YA the way I think of Shounen and Shoujo. Just a demographic that a work is aimed at, but has a lot of traits that're synonymous with it.

edited 9th May '12 11:42:51 AM by CrimsonFlameKnight

That is a good way of thinking it

Also for the Female/Female relationships: People just aren't ready to have that in YA fiction. I think that if someone wrote that, then they would get a freaking huge backlash from all the Anti Gay people out there. Which is just stupid beyond belief how we can't get over it.

Though I would like to see a YA book that deals with that. Hell if I liked it I wouldn't mind if it was Guy/Guy (I would have to REALLY like it though...sadly still can't really deal with those things in my entertainment...I need to grow up)

Well, they don't have to be romantic relationships (though there can be subtext), it could just be friendship based.

though, if there were any backlash over any YA books with LGBT protagonists, then that could actually benefit it, as it would gain alot of attention, and people would eventually read it to see what all the fuss is about.

I wouldn't say that YA isn't ready for a LGBT protagonist outside of its particular niche. It's just that mainstream seems to not want to go too into the issue. I hope that agents/editors aren't rejected such books because they are marketable, because that simply can't be true.

You don't know if it works until you step forward.

I think most of the problems we're talking about involve mainstream YA, the type of novels that get great marketing from The Big Six, pop up on various book blogs upon release, and even hit the bestseller list. YA, as a whole, is varied, but the problem is that a minority presents it, taking a large percent of the pie. Vocal Minority, most likely.

And considering how money plays a role here, these are where the more Hollywood-like problems pop up.

Thinking about it, how similar are the Big Six publishers to Hollywood studios?

Oh, and what are you guys' thoughts on Percy Jackson And The Olympians?

edited 9th May '12 12:49:47 PM by chihuahua0

Personally, that's just one of many reasons I can't wait for traditional publishing to go the way of the dodo.

But let me repeat my question from earlier, since you seem to be the expert on it: why is there any reason to consider "YA literature" as a unit, besides the fact that it's said to be? It consists of many different genres, and can only really be generalized thanks to the extensive amounts of Follow the Leader and formulaic plots. So is there any reason why it's really even a "thing"?

I hate to jump in on the middle of your guy's conversation, but I've been reading this thread for a bit, and I had some ideas.

I think of the Young Adult demographic as something similar to the kid's menu in a fast food resturaunt. You'll have your lunch or dinner served to you in a colorful cardboard box with some apple slices and a cheap plastic toy until you grow out of it, or until you can handle a value meal. It's a stepping stone.

The quote-unquote good young adult literature out there presents mature or "adult" themes in accessible way. There are discussions on death, love, and the realities of life (things like war, poverty, racism, sexism, and homophobia) presented in an accessible way to kids and teens who aren't ready for adult literature yet. That age is dependent on the reader. I stopped frequenting the YA section in my bookstores when I was thirteen because I wanted to read works that were deeper. I still pick up the occasional YA when I come across a good review or critque, or it attracts enough buzz that compels me to check it out.

edited 9th May '12 1:13:28 PM by DaisyBuchanansCloset

I loved it.

He actually bothered to do the research into the mythology. Rather than just making Hades the bad guy, like everyone else.

edited 9th May '12 1:20:07 PM by Matues

Thinking about it, he did do his research. Despite the type of world he created with Greek mythology, he draws from a wide range of characters.

But regardless, it's definitely a "reluctant reader" type of series. Greek mythology is white-washed, and there aren't many mature elements. For the most part, it's entertainment.

But whatever those kinds of books have their merit is something to consider, because in the end, a book's primary goal is to entertain.

@nrjxll: For the same reasons why Shonen, Shojo and Saturday morning cartoons are considered their own unit.

Even though these categories have a wide range of genres, from speculative to realistic, to past to future, there are still general trends within the demographic. For example, the presence of a teenage protagonist, a Coming of Age theme, generally breezier prose, the fact it's aimed toward teenagers, etc.

There are always exceptions, of course (like how Death Note is more Senien than Shonen), but overall, YA is more than a marketing label slapped on. It has its conventions, along with a sub-culture of readers, both teens and adults.

Readers are an important part of a book, after all.

Thinking about it, we're mostly discussing mainstream YA, as opposed to the more obscure titles. Of course, we're also talking about the type of YA that can be found as paperbacks on the library's plastic turning shelf—but this mostly concerns mainstream YA. But not just the best-sellers, but the titles that are sold nationwide and such.

Should this be considered the core question: Is mainstream YA harmful to both the demographic as a whole, and to its readers?

Harmful is a strong word, but would you say it can ruin a reader's taste for literature?

edited 9th May '12 2:12:36 PM by chihuahua0

I'm not convinced - what you describe is more of a product of being aimed towards teenagers then anything else. For instance, as a general rule one would expect people who are "coming of age" to be interested in a Coming of Age theme.

I mean, if you're going to aim a work towards teenagers, that's fine - or rather, it's not fine (as per JHM's comments in Writer's Block Daily), but I'm not going to stop you. But I don't see how that work would or should be considered part of a separate 'genre' of its own, rather then just a science fiction/fantasy/realistic/romance/whatever work that happens to be aimed towards teenagers.

As for your question, I'm not sure what you mean. Most of it's pretty bad, yes, but I'm not sure how one would define "harmful" in this case. I can't really realistically see any book ruining a reader's taste towards all literature.

edited 9th May '12 2:18:58 PM by nrjxll

I honestly prefer not to subject everything (Such as a book I read for enjoyment) to critical analysis. Especially if it's something I'm reading for amusement.

And mature content can sometimes ruin an otherwise good book for me. I don't need a graphic sex scene in a nice fantasy book.

And that's exactly how I like my books.

edited 9th May '12 2:43:43 PM by CrimsonFlameKnight