On fighting and gender equality

"Never hit a girl."

Every man in America- and, presumably, Canada, the UK, Ireland, and loads of other places- heard this throughout their childhood. Men fighting men is fine, women fighting women is fine, but something sets society off about violence between members of different sexes.

This topic is really two topics- why is this concept enforced in society almost a century after women's suffrage, and, more importantly, should one make a distinction between the sexes in matters of violence?

Note: This thread does not condone domestic violence, street violence, or anything like that. I speak more from the perspective of a boxer and MMA fighter.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-

Why this certain line.of.thought is still present in this day and age? I have no clue; chalk it up to tradition.

As for making a distinction between the sexes when it comes.to violence, I say no. If the situation has progressed to the point where violence is necessary there are no men and women, just threats. You deal with them by using the appropriate amount of force.

I agree. The physical differences between men and women really aren't enough to justify any sort of double standard in this regard.

I don't think people should ever be violent unless there isn't any other option, regardless of who they're being violent against.

Be not afraid...

If we are talking about combat sports, I guess that it's fine either way — it's all arbitrary in any case, so the choice on whether to separate the genders or not should only depend on what makes the sport more entertaining.*

Still, if (and that's a big if — I don't know enough about contact sports to know for certain) a hypothetical mixed-gender sport league would be very much male-dominated, it makes sense for women to create their own league. It's no big deal either way, really.

If we are talking about real violence, instead, I entirely agree with Loni.

edited 12th Apr '12 3:37:25 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Oh yeah... I should probably say that I was talking abut 'real' violence. I don't know enough about violent sports to really judge either way.

Be not afraid...

I concur. Really, men and women can be as brutal and as mean as each other. Sex and gender need to be ignored, by the law first, and secondly, society, when it comes to violence. One can be beaten up effectively by either sex. It's still as traumatic either way.

This also extends to rape, too: Men can be raped by women as well. Still just as bad.

There's a story by the The Onion about the world's first female dictator being heralded as a working mother and showing that females are ruthless leaders too.

That sort of thinking is tied into "boys will be boys" and finding violence between men or between boys to be normal at all and acceptable within limits. Which is a pretty harmful way of thinking, all in all. Personally, I think if I have good enough reason to become violent, then I also have good enough reason to become violent against women (self-defence, for example). If there is not enough reason to be violent against women, that means there is not enough reason to be violent, period.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

The social and cultural differences are what matter imo. Women in America generally don't have the mindset to fight, especially not a man. They seem to never really expect it.

I can't watch women fight... More often than not it's just embarrassing to watch.. I get this weird feeling like "This really shouldn't be happening" that goes through my head. Even the women who know how to fight, seeing it happen just flips this weird little switch in my brain like "WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING SOMEONE YOU'RE A GIRL!"

Now given, I've hit women before(In a setting where this was acceptable, mind you) and I kind of enjoyed it... Like I was breaking some law that I always felt like I was supposed to follow.

I've been able to handle the few violent encounters with women that by grabbing their hands and telling them to calm down. Tons of alcohol was always involved. It would be a different story if a professional female boxer would try to kill me with a knife, but that's unlikely to happen.

The social and cultural expectations need to go die in a fire, then. I'm not usually that blunt, but that's my opinion.

I really dislike the idea that a woman can go around slapping men and it's comedic and/or totally justified, but if one of the men slaps her back it's some sort of outrage. If you can't take getting hit in return, don't hit people.

This sort of thing is surprisingly deeply imprinted... I even have it myself in the context of my writing. I had a character slap her husband, and then realised that I didn't really see that as a big deal - nowhere near as bad as if the genders were reversed.

Maybe you only get past these things by conscious effort.

edited 12th Apr '12 5:32:32 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

Having used to routinely fought women in my fencing class, I find them to be far more terrifying than the guys due to their viciousness or textbook techniques. So in the context of combat sports, I'd say that there shouldn't be a biase against women in fighting. The only worry should be the weight, and that only applies to boxing/ unarmed combat.

edited 12th Apr '12 5:40:09 AM by IraTheSquire

Personally, I'd advise against driving a situation to violence if at all possible. And considering that a person would have to be somewhat crazy to punch someone out of the blue for no reason, it's usually surprisingly easy to avoid turning an argument into a fight. I'm more of the opinion that in the vast majority of cases, you have to at least partly have wanted to resort to blows if you get into an actual fight.

Firstly, if you're in a fight that involves getting mugged or criminally assaulted, I don't think there's anyone who would differentiate between male and female. A weapon's a weapon, whether or not it's being held by a man or a woman, right? With that in mind, the most common scenario where you'd actually have to think about whether or not to hit a girl is in a civilian setting. And in my opinion, violence is extremely easy to avoid in a civilian setting.

In fact, based on all the stupid fights I've ever seen (which are all of them), here are some useful tips for NOT having to worry about hitting someone, whether the opponent is male or female. Follow these steps, and you'll never have to make that decision in the first place:

• Don't give in to insults. This especially applies for racial insults—my god... Nearly all insults are baseless and empty, so if someone is acting like a jerk toward you, just grow up and deal with it. If someone is being viciously aggressive at you for something you said, just suck it up and apologize. You won't lose anything by doing so.
• Also, don't insult people. This especially applies when the person you're mad at didn't mean to offend you in the first place. Don't incite conflict when there wasn't any to begin with. This especially applies for any racial faux pas—my god... Grow up and just let it go. If you disagree with something a person says and you suddenly call that guy an idiot for it, then you kind of deserve to be mangled by him (or her).
• Never suggest violence as an answer to an argument, and suck up your pride and dissuade violence when your opponent suggests it. People, weirdly enough, seem more apt toward fighting against someone who is willing to fight them back (in a civilian setting). Just leave if you have to.
• If it actually comes down to blows, then do what you have to do. And try to stand your opponent down as you're fighting. Quite honestly, you'd have to be borderline psychotic to attack someone who followed all the advice I outlined above.

I've never seen someone actually pick a fight for no reason, i.e, the scene in the Mos Eisley Star Wars cantina. Not even with school bullies in junior high. If anyone else believes that unprovoked fights are a common occurrence, feel free to contradict me.

They never travel alone.

Rest assured, there are people out there who will still try to pick a fight with you, even.if you're following those rules; chalk it up to testosterone and stupidity.

I was taught Aikido for ten years in a dojo run by a woman who's two heads shorter than me, old enough to be my mother, and easily skilled enough to whup me silly ten times out of ten. She is not my only female senior in that dojo who can whup me silly. One of our regular guests for seminars is a lovely old lady who could be my grandmother, and she can wipe the floor with about every one of us, often three at a time. I am a much better aikidoka for trying to follow their example.

What's that about treating women differently in a fight?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

I try to go against those imprinted notions as much as I can, mainly via making it known should the situation get tense that if a girl slaps or hits me, her teeth are going down the back of her throat.

I think a large part of it is based on the fact that on the whole, men are better at violence for two important reasons:

We have more upper body strength, for both biological and social reasons. The social reason's that as a whole we usually aren't working out just to stay in shape and curb fat, but because muscle and strength are seen as desireable masculine traits.

The other reason is social, but it's about how mentally prepared you are to fight. Men in our society are taught that real men at least know how to fight, and that fighting is "manly". Women are taught that for them to fight it is considered negative, it is "unladylike". How mentally prepared you are to fight is well over 50 percent of what is important about getting into a fight in the first place. If I have to bet on two fighters, I'll bet on the one that I feel is better prepared to fight via training, prior experience, and personal reflection.

This gives most males in our society an unprecedented advantage in a fight, thus fighting a woman is not seen as "fair" or "sporting".

Now I don't necessarily share these views or think that it always happens this way, but those reasons are true in a good majority of western society. The general message that might makes right, and that women shouldn't have overt might/authority. There's no proof of authority or power higher than forcing submission through physical dominance.

That kind of mindset persists until she punches you square in the chest. ^^

edited 12th Apr '12 7:19:01 AM by Kino

@Vellup - I've seen many people pick many fights for no reason. Where do you live? At least up and down the East Coast, it's fairly normal for random bar fights to break out.

On the actual topic - I haven't hit a girl since the last time I fist-fought with one of my sisters at the age of 13 or so. I've had girls try to hit me, both playfully and seriously, and in the former case I laugh and let it happen, in the second I just grab their wrists, turn them around, and hold on to them until they calm down.

Now, I know this is a double standard, and for that reason I don't like it in principle, but I can't bring myself to have a problem with it in practice. Let me give an example of the "playful" hitting. A girl and I had just finished attending to the kind of business you usually handle in a large bed, and she was getting her clothes back on because she had to leave. I picked up one of her knee-high boots and remarked on the 9 and a half shoe size. She got mad, and my response was, "No big deal, all my sisters have huge feet too." Predictably, she got even more upset and started hitting me with the other boot, in the head. Pretty hard, too. I have a pretty high pain tolerance and I really don't mind getting punched or kicked or whatever*

, so I just laughed. She hit me four or five times before I finally pushed her away.

Now, if the situation had been reversed, how much of an awful, woman-beating psycho would I have been? Pretty bad, in my own opinion, and I think the majority would agree. Even if I was just doing it "playfully," whomping a girl in the head with a boot several times is not really acceptable.

As to why that's the case, I'm sure it has much to do with thousands of years of cultural conditioning. But is that really a bad thing? I've done a lot of fighting, both casual on the street and training in the Army. Girls just aren't at the same level as guys, with very few exceptions. I've done combatives with girls who only weighed ten or so pounds less than me (back when I was around 170 instead of 215), and who were manifestly quite strong and had a high muscle-to-fat ratio despite having womanly figures. And you know what? They were no match, not even close. These weren't giggly pushovers either, not fighting back hard because "girls shouldn't fight." They tried, hard. But it was just no contest. So I really have no problem with keeping to my wouldn't hit a girl rule, and if I see a guy and a girl get into a fight, I'm going to get in there and defend the girl, no questions asked. Call me regressive and a troglodyte or whatever, but I make no apologies about it.

On a slightly different note, I have no problem with women fighting each other, and I'm a big Gina Carano fan. And if a woman like Carano, who's highly trained and dangerous in a fight, kicks a dude's ass in a bar, so be it. I believe she actually did that recently. If a man is willing to hit a girl and then she ends up winning, fuck him, he deserved it. But in most cases, the man is going to win and I hate seeing it.

edited 12th Apr '12 7:14:41 AM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

Sure. Even more reason they shouldn't initiate fights, I'd say.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

*shrug* I was always taught not to physically get into fights with anyone, male or female. But, I was also taught chivalry, which does inherently have a "treat women better" slant to it. But, I usually try to apply that chivalry to both women and men, so yeah, what I'm saying is I have no idea if I'm actually addressing the topic or not.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

@Martello: 9.5 in men's?

Nah, women's, but still pretty big for a girl, I guess. Why women get hung up on having slightly-larger-than-average feet is completely beyond me.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

Women are compliccated creatures dude.

Ah I forgot to mention, my first real time tackling this issue was in high school. We had a girl on the wrestling team, and it was always hard to do... Pinning a girl to the floor while she's resisting with all her strength felt way too much like rape was about to ensue. It scared the shit out of me, and I tried not to spar with her afterwards.

To piggyback on what Martello said though... She was good, her technique was good and she was in great shape, but she never beat me, and I was never an all-star by any means. I was just out and out stronger and more stubborn. Though to be fair, being stubborn is what has made me come out on top of fights with several people who were stronger or better than me, boatloads of fight in this here dog.

edited 12th Apr '12 7:41:30 AM by Barkey

@Kino - tracking that.

@Barkey - I watched a 14 year-old kid wrestle a girl of the same age, and when he got up after pinning her, well, we all know how tight wrestling singlets are. Let's just say that the poor kid was pretty embarrassed and quickly grabbed his hoodie off to the side of the mat and carried it in front of him to the locker room to change.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

I had something similar happen back I was dating one of the students I instructed in karate(yeah, conflict of interest..blah blah). There was this ambient rapey feeling. The fact that our foreplay was somewhat similiar didn't help.