Batman General Discussion

Being a crime lord isn't a particularly strong position to hold if you live in Gotham.

Also, they seemed pretty close in the 90s and 2000s.

Catwoman's motivation for stealing are either due to kleptomania, being a Robin Hood figure or just for the shit and giggles. The former can be solved by a psychiatrist, though Mr Dress up like a Bat to fight crime would be the last guy that can convince her to see one.

Catwoman's background has changed multiple-multiple times. However, consistently, she's always been an adrenaline junkie with a love for shiny objects/the high life.

Deeper characterizations add the fact she doesn't like relying on anyone (because they always let her down) and that she has a disdain for the rich as well as ordered.

edited 10th Feb '18 12:52:07 AM by CharlesPhipps

I liked the time in an early Nightwing comic where Catwoman tried to flirt with Dick in an attempt to get out of trouble, and he infuriated her by busting out laughing, given that he'd seen her do that to Bruce so many times and knew it was a transparent attempt to manipulate him.

Mind you, I'm genuinely surprised they also didn't go. "Also, you've had sex with my DAD. Really, no one is that hot. Not even you."

:)

It's nice when the unassailable are occasionally assailed.

Funny thing... if I remember right that Nightwing comic began with a short Acid Reflux Nightmare sequence explaining why a Bat-Cat marriage would never work out. Selina and Bruce were on the altar and everything, and five seconds after saying "I do" Bruce sees the Bat-Signal and tries to run off, at which point a furious Selina tears him to pieces growling that she "owns" him.

Then she wakes up.

More likely, she'd say, "Hold on, I'm coming with!"

But I think Bruce and Selina's marriage would be... odd. They may be the sort of couple who only spend a few weekends a year together. They don't need to be close, they have that connection, but they also don't want to be together all the time either — and knowing both, they'd be monogamous anyway.

I can't say I'm happy with the premise of Detective Comics Rebirth.

I feel bad criticizing her because I like the character but in what world is Batwoman qualified to be second in command of the entire Bat-Family? Also, what is with making fathers evil in the new universe.

Mr. Kane, Jor-El, Zor-El, and probably others.

I mean she does have a military background. I've only read the first volume of detective comics so far and I really like it.

True,

The Rebirth Batwoman was actually a soldier, right? Without Don't Ask Don't Tell she graduated from West Point I assume?

I don't know her current status despite the fact being outside the Bat Inner Circle protecting her from most retcons.

No, she was still kicked out. Her dad tells her early on in the current run that she can reenlist now that DADT has been repealed, but she doesn't want to.

Honestly, I could see Kate's backstory becoming sort of similar to Karma from X-Men's. It hinges so heavily on a specific point in time (DADT and the Vietnam War respectively) that they can't really change it, so they just keep going and pretend that it isn't anachronistic.

Perhaps, though you can re-imagine it in the same manner without killing it.

• The (perhaps fictional) school is private and has an anti-homophobia code
• Kate is called to stand up for something and refuses to lie on an unrelated matter

And so on

In any case, while it's hard to imagine her teaching Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake anything, I don't know what's canon and not with those two anymore.

Tim hasn't really been learning anything. He's more like Kate's assistant than anyone's protege, helping set up all of their equipment and working with Batwing on their tech.

And then for Cass, it's supposedly Bruce and Kate teaching her how to use her abilities to help people, and helping her integrate into regular civilian life, but like... with how little focus she's gotten, they haven't actually shown them doing that.

Well Clayface is helping her speech problems at least.

She's not second-in-command of the whole Batfamily, just this team. And part of the reason that team was formed was to keep Kate from warning Jacob that Batman was on to him, just as a precaution. Also, Jacob Kane isn't evil.

I'm good with that. Within the past year or so, I've encountered someone who genuinely thought that DADT was completely fictional. It wasn't repealed even a decade ago. If Kate's story can be one reminder that the US had that shitty policy, then that's a positive.

edited 13th Feb '18 11:49:19 AM by caivu

Personally, I wish it would be buried on the dustbin of history.

Mind you, when Clinton made it, I thought it was an attempt to allow homosexuals in the military.

In Real Life, certainly it should. But it needs to live in on fiction as a reminder, I think. Fiction's not the only way to do such things, of course, but it's a way.

Its a pretty unique origin so I'd be a bit amiss if it was removed.

I'd keep it solely because it is pretty unique.

Re: Kate's use of lethal force

I'm going to challenge the usual Bat-Morality being "wrong" despite the fact I'm with John Stewart when the Guardians gave the Green Lanterns the authority to use lethal force due to the threat of the Sinestro Corps i.e. "it's a right which should be exercised only when necessary but is sometimes necessary." Specifically, Kate is full of crap here and should be arrested. Why? Because the reason Batman doesn't kill isn't just because he's a traumatized orphan with a love of life but because he is an illegal vigilante who holds himself to the standard of not deciding who lives or dies.

Kate's father, literally, just ran a murder squad of Batmen just a few issues ago and she learned nothing from it. It's doubly insane because her father WAS a legitimate and legal member of the United States military with authority to do what he was doing while she is just someone wandering around in a costume. Given the gross abuses of power by legitimate authority, the fact the Batman doesn't kill is the only sign he's not insane and actually worried about the consequences of his actions.

Also, the fact Basil was in this universe an innocent victim of a horrible curse and their ostensible friend.

edited 18th Feb '18 7:33:25 AM by CharlesPhipps

You said it much better than I could. All of that.

What Kate did was an almost textbook case of justifiable homicide, so legally she's in the right. Morally, too.

No. The Colony's actions in Gotham were not officially sanctioned, since they weren't supposed to operate on U.S. soil. The fact that Kate's a vigilante doesn't matter. If any other citizen had done the same thing in that situation, they'd also be in the right.

edited 18th Feb '18 8:49:31 AM by caivu

If you're going to arrest Kate for this, then you might as well arrest Bruce for his crimes which include torture, privacy violation, criminal trespassing and child endangerment. And these are a hell lot harder to justify than justifiable homicide.

Bruce has way more in common with Kate's dad than he'd like to admit. Two words: Brother Eye. That's not even getting into the number of times he's looked the other way when someone he's personally close to broke the law like with Damien and Selina. Hell, it wasn't that long ago he busted Selina out of prison when she was on death row for murder. I don't care if it turned out she was innocent later on, Bruce did not know that at the time. If the guy gave a damn about the law he'd join the police or any other legitimized peacekeeping body and not decide to unilaterally police the world which always tends to end in disaster and bring more pain and suffering than anything Kate or almost any other killer vigilante has done.

None of which changes the fact that he was a clear and present danger and could not be stopped any other way. It sucks, but sometimes you just have to take the hand fate deals you.

Yeah, I didn't buy it when Huntress tried it before she joined the Birds of Prey and I don't buy it with Kate. If you're going to decide to be a vigilante, even in Gotham City, you don't get to decide who lives or dies.