Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.
Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM
Saying "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" implies that because people believe that the first marriage was a man and a woman (who was effectively his Opposite-Sex Clone), only straight marriage is valid.
In certain religions? Maybe. In America? Not anymore. But if people are STILL quoting that tired old phrase, it can only mean that a lot of people are unwilling to change their minds.
Especially if they hold to the Bible as the grand authority of all things moral.
Or more likely, they just still think gays are icky.
edited 11th Sep '15 8:08:30 PM by Keybreak
I hate doubleposting, but I think that this is the thread I'm supposed to come to for a post like this one.
The thing between gays and religion reached a tipping point somewhere in the past few years, when both sides were saying something like "They're being evil and oppressing us!"
When I learned that the Oathkeepers were an armed militia coming to protect Kim Davis and not just some kind of large protest group, that made me think that the whole thing might be the start of an actual culture civil war.
I never read about gays being violent toward Christians, except verbally. If it ever got to that point though, that'd take the love out of both "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love knows no gender".
edited 11th Sep '15 8:16:41 PM by Keybreak
A procrastination in of itself
Most Christian opposition to gays is from thosue branches of Christianity that have very little of a relationship with Jesus and his teachings, I remember going to an Evangelical Church and then back to my Church of England one and it was only when I went back to the Co E one that I realised what I'd felt was missing from the Evangelical one, Christ.
There's a much stronger focus on the Old Testemant and the much more wrathful God who killed people and punished the Israelites for not committing genocide. To get a strong focus on Jesus' teaching about love, compassion and such you need to look outside thouse branches of Christianity that are opposed (or at least so violently opposed) to gays.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
"What, exactly, did God intend Adam to do with his wang before Eve came about?
Two words- Animal. Husbandry.
Archbishop of Canterbury plans to loosen ties of divided Anglican communion 
A Lambeth Palace source said the archbishop felt he could not leave his eventual successor in the same position of “spending vast amounts of time trying to keep people in the boat and never actually rowing it anywhere”.
Welby believes that his proposal will allow him to maintain relations with the liberal churches of north America, which recognise and encourage gay marriage, and the African churches, led by Kenya, Uganda and Nigeria, who are agitating for the recriminalisation of all homosexual activity in their countries. Both will be able to call themselves “Anglican” but there will no longer be any pretence that this involves a common discipline or doctrine.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It seems for the best. Honestly, the factions are so far apart on this & other issues, that neither has any business trying to dictate the other's tone or doctrine.
Even theologically speaking, Thomas More and Thomas Cranmer had more in common than the average British and African Anglican bishops now do. However gently Welby strives to manage the split, that's what the future almost certainly holds.
The awkward part has always been with the conservative Anglicans located in Britain & North America, and with liberal Anglicans located in Africa. If those isolated congregations want to enter into communion with the now-foreign denomination, then church property will become a very sticky issue. And because feelings run so high on both sides over gay-related issues, I don't expect that any negotiations will feature much charity or brotherliness.
edited 17th Sep '15 8:57:01 AM by Jhimmibhob
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
First Church of Skype?
Mikon :3
Wasn't quite sure where to fit this one.
Kim Davis is upset about being told she's a hypocrite and not a true Christian.
She also has friends who happen to be abominable homosexual sinners. Whether they remain this after she denied them a license is anyone's guess.
It's weird that she calls herself forgiven.
Who forgave her? Not the gay couples. Not the people who pointed out her divorces. Only maybe her priest and her own conscience.
As for getting dignity from a piece of paper...well, maybe if marriage didn't come with all those dignifying benefits.
A procrastination in of itself
I think forgiveness is about her multiple marriages and kid out of wedlock, with God being the person who forgave her after she "saw the light".
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
You can't really call yourself forgiven with no authority. It's only you saying that you're a better person because you feel like you are.
edited 23rd Sep '15 5:19:15 AM by Keybreak
A procrastination in of itself
She feels that she has God's authority.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
She thinks God is her attack dog. That is all.
Christianity's tendency to inspire that sort of thinking is one of it's bigger flaws.
Mikon :3
Personally, a failed relationship (or three) is hardly a moral failing to me. We all make mistakes. My problem is she's judging non-heterosexuals by a moral standard (the Bible) which has a lot more to say about divorce than it does about same-sex relations. But no one can judge her by that standard, because whatever she did before she was "saved" doesn't count. Her god has forgiven her, she claims. By that reasoning why can't gay people get married, say "God forgave us for it", and get their paperwork? They really shouldn't have to go through that ritual, but since the government can't be bothered to enforce its own laws, I'll tolerate it.
Well, if she was a Catholic, she could've done confession and actual penance. We cover the authority bit fairly well.
It's best than to engage in self-loathing and despair and permanent remorse. That's why asking for forgiveness is a necessary thing (either personally or, preferably, through a priest, as long as one's sincerely repentful). It's supposed to make sure we're always aware of our flaws and sins and that we're determined to become better throughout life. If that is a flaw, I'll happily take it.
edited 23rd Sep '15 7:15:03 AM by Quag15
Saying it here because that separation of LGBT Rights and church and LGBT Rights and state thing is stupid.
With all of this stuff about Kim Davis, there still isn't much religious acceptance of gayness. And there isn't much mainstream acceptance of religion these days.
Some people say that religious people "hate" homosexuals and not just homosexuality. Some religious people say it's the other way around.
And some people hate religious people, AND they hate religion.
Hating people who hate you back isn't very nice, but it would probably keep you away from each other. Though it's not as conducive to cooperation, which is probably more beneficial.
It just takes some forgiveness on one side to reach out to the other and try to understand each other.
A nice butterfly
Why not just hate everyone and be done with it?
Equality for all!
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
The simplest solution.
Or love everyone. The nicer solution.
Mikon :3
Or better yet: don't hate people, but don't let them walk all over you either.
That's a pretty strong statement, what with Christianity having its own genres of music and film, and Jesus having half a dozen TV channels dedicated to him.
I don't hate religious people, though I get accused of it on occasion. I have friends who are religious. I know how that sounds, but hear me out. My religious friends don't wave their faith like a banner and use it as an excuse to claim moral superiority to people like me. Quite unlike the religious people I get angry with in the news and in real life.
Sounds nice. But I don't feel morally obligated to forgive people who don't seek it. I don't feel I need forgiveness for upsetting prejudiced people by existing.
edited 25th Sep '15 11:44:29 AM by Morgikit
Apparently people hate what they think will do them harm.
Just being gay doesn't do anybody else harm.
It's only the "consequences" of gayness that they think will. God's wrath on everybody else or something.
Religious parents would think that their kids' gayness will send them to Hell and most good parents wouldn't want that if Hell is actually real. But if it is real and them being gay will actually condemn them for eternity, then, well...
What a cruel God that would be.
Abrahamic faiths often have that thing wherein people think that they have to police the faith of everybody else, like they are personally responsible for the souls of each individual on the planet. This influences their worldview and many of their decisions.
This is a signature.
Back when the mobs were unruly and they thought the only way to control them was by saying that if they did bad things then they would suffer forever after they died.
Now when you see that so many communities have their own well-established belief systems that have equally little evidence supporting them, it gets harder to believe in ANY religion.
When you're brought up around Christians, you fight for God.
When you're brought up around Muslims, you fight for Allah.
When you're brought up around Pastafarians, you fight for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
...I had a deeper point. What was it...?
World's Cutest Direwolf
That they'll do you harm is one reason to hate people, but it's hardly the only one. There's that guy mentioned in the US politics thread who obscenely marked up the price of some medicine because only his company produced it. I expect rather more people hate him than personally need that medicine.
It should be noted that in some traditions before Adam and Eve there was Adam and Lilith. But it didn't work out and she did her own thing. Also something about the spear of Longinus, Beethoven and orange Tang.