LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

What the hell is "gender theory"? And if it means "LGBT acceptance" then Francis deserves to be hammered for comparing it to nukes.

Well, he did had a dinner with transgender people, so, at least you can say that he's far more into help, respect and hospitality than your average Christian fundie, even if he allegedly (and I say allegedly because there seems to be no proper verifiable confirmation) dislikes the gender theory (again, one might dislike the theory, but not the people - I dislike neoliberalism, but not neoliberal people).

And, again, you're talking about harm (which is good, but not the whole thing), but not the deterrence side of the comparison.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:28:31 PM by Quag15

@Madgrugada- I don't now how far to go with this since this isn't the "debate the use of nuclear weapons" thread, but as I understand it, nuclear weapons as a metaphor is used to describe things that are very destructive and have mostly or exclusively negative consequences- it's all something Gone Horribly Wrong.

So, it's a much stronger statement than saying that something has the potential to cause harm.

If I wanted to use a metaphor to describe something that is positive or at worst neutral but could be misused to cause harm, I'd make a comparison to technology in general, not nuclear weapons.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:29:33 PM by Hodor2

No. Not "transpeople/gender theory". Just "gender theory".

edited 31st Mar '15 1:33:58 PM by Madrugada

@madrugada. Criticism of an ideology and comparing the damage of an ideology to nuclear weapons aren't the same thing. Nuclear weapons imply the potential to outright destroy all of humanity. So yes, if I'd compared religion to nukes I'd be demonizing religion because I would imply that they destroy humanity. I think religions are bad. But not that bad.

I just did and it seems he compared it more in the sense that both don't recognize the "Order of Creation" not actual damage caused.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:39:03 PM by Antiteilchen

Please read the actual quote. It's in that post

Thanks for posting the quote. With that in mind, I think it's false then to say that Francis compared gay people (or even really "gender theory") to nukes.

Instead, his attitude is more that it's bad because it goes against nature/treats something as a problem that exists in nature. Or at least that's what I'm getting from this part:

"Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation."

and this part:

"With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator," the pope says. "The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate."

Would I be going too far to suggest that the Pope's attitude toward changing one's sex is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Which is to say that yeah, he's not a friend of transpeople.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:58:48 PM by Hodor2

Saying "I'm against trans gender theory but not against trans people" isn't that much different from saying "I'm against homosexuality but not gay people".

And one can be against Islam (or at least certain aspects of it), but not against Muslims.

I'll point once more that Francis had a dinner with transgender people. He looked past the transgender element of their identity during that short moment. Isn't that a sign of progress already, however small it may be?

Either way it's always depressing to be told your very existence makes you evil.

That doesn't make him progressive. That just means he has some sense of manners.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:12:39 PM by Morgikit

Not evil per se, more along the lines of a Mad Scientist interfering with nature. Still not a positive though.

Agreed. He's not progressive in everything. But he's been doing lots of positive things to counter his (so far) few bad moments.

Also, help, charity, respect, hospitality. It's not about mere manners. Manners are the tip of the iceberg.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:14:40 PM by Quag15

#15985: But that's not what he said. That's not what the Catholic Church teaches. Saying that they hold that "being gay makes you evil" is a gross misstatement of the Roman Catholic Church's position. There may be splinter Christian denominations that hold that position, but it is not the position of the RCC.

How many times does that have to be said?

edited 31st Mar '15 2:16:39 PM by Madrugada

Well, it's just good old Appeal to Nature fallacy. After all, God also created the universe to make nukes possible in the first place; created humans to be clever enough to figure it out and made the materials available for us. You could just as well argue that not developing them is against nature. Same for "gender theory", genetic modification or chopping wood (figuratively or literaly).

But his ability to be civil to a trans person at the dinner table doesn't mean he isn't transphobic. My mother may not insult a black person to their face, but she's still being a racist when she uses the n-word. She's not a violent person, but she is prejudiced.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:25:52 PM by Morgikit

Remember to, the guy is Catholic... there are certain dogmas that they have had for almost 2000 years. It's not going to magically change over night.

And as Maddy has pointed out, he never said evil. He never implied evil. He just said he thinks the body god gives you is the body you are supposed to have.

You can disagree and that is fine. I disagree. But this is the same Pope who has been preaching that you aren't supposed to treat anyone bad or be cruel to anyone especially in the name of the faith.

That's not a baby step. That's a flying leap. We're getting there. We just got to be a little patient

honestly I think he is doing the best he can and I am not willing to throw him under the bus just because he's not comfortable with accepting transgendered people yet.

Sorry. I guess I'm taking it a bit too personally.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:27:05 PM by Antiteilchen

What Gabrael said.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:27:00 PM by Quag15

Fine, no bus throwing. Just don't award him a Nobel Peace Prize for not being the last guy.

If he gets a Nobel Peace Prize, it will be for other reasons (e.g. helping out with the recent changes in the relations between the US and Cuba).

I think in many respects Francis is an excellent Pope and an excellent person, and his attitude on transgender people/gender issues is probably the best that can be expected from a Pope/spokesperson for the Roman Catholic Church.

On the other hand, it is disappointing to learn that the quote wasn't a hoax (even if it is somewhat better than the spin of "transgender people are nukes").

edited 31st Mar '15 2:37:00 PM by Hodor2

Look, he's okay as Popes go, but if he's saying that people just living their lives are committing "new sin" etc. then I have a problem with him. Being a religious leader doesn't give him a free pass, in fact it does the opposite. What he says holds a lot of weight with a lot of people. Even if he has the bare minimum courtesy to treat trans people with respect, he is still damaging their wider acceptance in society.

The problem is not what he said, but, as we've proved here, what everyone thinks he said.