LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

I know there are those who think being homosexual or transgendered aren't innate. Just because they are wrong doesn't mean I am going to change my standards. I honestly feel like eventually the fact such things aren't a choice will become the prevailing common knowledge.

If anything that just shows how flawed something like "love the sinner/hate the sin" is.

@Joey, You can lose someone's love and/or respect. That is more than possible. I'm not sure what you mean though. Of course you can disagree with someone's decisions. But it depends on what those decisions are if they merit losing it.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Question to the thread in general. For you, is anybody at all who opposes gay marriage a homophobe?

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

Well, most arguments against gay marriage are, unsurprisingly, rather anti-homosexuality.

Not intrinsically. But I've yet to see an argument against homosexuality that held any water except on a religious morals basis/

about the closest I've seen is my mom who for vague reasons doesnt support gay marriage. But concedes that her support or non-support is meaningless and that gays do deserve the same marriage rights as anyone else regardless of whether she personally approved.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:40:34 AM by Midgetsnowman

I believe anyone who opposes equal treatment for gays or turns a blind eye to their mistreatment is a homophobe, regardless of their reasons or of how polite they are about it.

Well...I suppose if a meteor is heading towards earth and the only way to stop it... No I'm not even going to try.

If we're using homophobe in wider definition of being anti gay, then yes opposing gay marriage rights makes you a homophobe. There is no getting around it.

edited 18th Apr '13 6:17:36 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

While these are all valid opinions on how respect and love works, I still the Biblical standard of "love the person, not the sin" is correct, is reasonable, and it works.

But then that's just me.

re: Denial of rights makes you a homophobe: I don't argue with that. But if there's a question of if a right applies to you or not, someone has a right to ask "Do you have that right?" The mere asking of the question, to my thinking, can't constitute homophobia or whatever word you slap on it.

Once your argument has been proven null and void and you still continue to hold to it, then that's more or less the textbook definition of bigotry.

edited 18th Apr '13 6:37:54 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

The answer to the question "Do you have the right?" is a factual statement. If I say I don't have the right to marry a male in my state, that's a fact, you can look it up and verify it. Doesn't make me homophobic, obviously.

But suppose someone says "Should you have the right to marry another man? I say no, and here's why." Whatever explanation follows, I reserve the right to consider it prejudice. This person supports denying me a right I believe I deserve, so yeah, I'm going to consider any justification moot. That's assuming they don't just say "omg u cant mary a man ur a fagit!!111".

See that's the thing. All these statements of automatic homophobia/bigotry are predicated on the idea that you are entitled to something and since you're obviously entitled, anybody that doesn't see that must be phobic.

I just don't get that your own belief in what you think you're entitled to means it's automatically correct.

I mean Christians think they're entitled to a great many things; and they're NOT.

---

Does anybody have any idea where that Scott Lively trial is at? Last I heard, he'd filed to get it thrown out.

edited 18th Apr '13 7:56:40 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Christians are entitled to marry in a Christian or any other legal type of wedding ceremony no matter what politicians think of the Christian religion.

Christians are entitled to mention their religion offhand at work and not get fired over it.

Christians are entitled to share their beliefs with others without fear of violent reprisal.

Anyone who disagreed with that I'd say is anti-Christian.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:10:42 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

I don't agree Card.

If you, me, and Morg all worked at TV Tropes and you and I were talking about putting a presentation on all the instances of The Captain in the Old Testament, and Morg overheard and voiced concerns that we were using the workplace to promote religious belief, I'd say he has a legit question.

I realize that what me stifling my grasp of this is that I do not believe someone questioning something is indicative of ill intent or even wrongdoing.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:13:14 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

People do tend to believe their opinions are correct. Otherwise they wouldn't hold them.

Last I checked, you don't have to have your opinion verified as correct by an independent source before you hold it.

Also, I'd like to expand the definition of homophobia I suggested earlier to include the spread of misinformation. Making claims like "homosexuals don't live past 30" or "gay sex automatically makes you a member of the Nazi Party". I just made those up, but I've heard similarly ridiculous claims.

Morg would have no issue with the above, assuming the presentation treats the Bible as a literary work and avoids the "is it fiction or real" debate.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:21:01 AM by Morgikit

Well that's my point Morg, I don't see how someone having an opinion that is counter to what you believe counts as "unreasonable disdain or hatred". Of course, I'm also the guy who doesn't care if someone disagreed with me dating a white girl.

And saying being gay automatically makes you a Nazi....that would demonstrate one helluva Research Fail.

It was an honor

I don't think that is a valid concern given that The Bible whether real or fiction is a tropable work. It isn't promoting it anymore than a Tropes page on Star Trek is promotion Star Trek, and by that I mean nobody will make you visit the page.

We could have that presentation and then discuss later if we should include in on the website.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:26:58 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

Depends on the opinion. It could count as an "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against".

Wait a minute...

Which entitlement don't you agree with? The example you gave falls under none of them. You can get married anywhere, not face violent reprisal for stating your beliefs in the middle of the street as long as you don't disrupt traffic or people, and if you mention your a Christian you can say that at work without getting fired.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:30:40 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

I was trying to say that someone merely disagreeing with or speaking against my faith, race, or nationality may be doing so because of some unique, internal logic that leads them to that path; not because they think less of me objectively.

Admittedly, that wasn't the best example. I seem to be lacking in good metaphors of late.

It was an honor

Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean it isn't racist.

If it was about you as individuals it wouldn't be. Like if he thought you were bad for the girl because your personalities didn't match or something it wouldn't be racist. But just because of your skin color, yeah it is.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:38:16 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

Well is it good thing no one try to make that illegal then isn't?

hashtagsarestupid

Well admittedly joey, that's the reason I don't care!

It was an honor

Hey Ship can you come up with one argument against interracial marriage that isn't racist? This included the Condescending Compassion.

Edit: Punctuation correction.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:48:57 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

I can't.

But it seems every retort comes back to "can you think of one reason that isn't rooted in......" That's not the point.

Someone can have a wrong idea, simply because they know no better, not because they're racist.

I support traditional marriage and traditional gender roles, but I've already had the debate to realize those aren't good reasons to deny marriage rights to someone. I had an idea, it was shown to be invalid, I let it go.

I feel like a homophobe would keep with it. Thus why the difference is more than mere "sophistry" or "semantics".

It was an honor

Not true. Racism is often born out of ignorance.

We might be having different ideas of what constitutes support. It sounds like when you say "support" it just means you'd rather have people around you be like that but realize people shouldn't be forced to follow it. Is that right?

METAL GEAR!?

Correct.

It was an honor

Yeah, about that...here.

Also:

The two links (especially the video) are possible the greatest instances of the lethal and civilization-threatening combination of idiocy, mendacity, and bigotry I have ever seen.

edited 18th Apr '13 9:00:49 AM by Achaemenid

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