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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 601 Pykrete, Fri, 4th May '12 4:13:18 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
To be fair, the Catholic Church in particular has a lot of extra hoops to jump through that will be considerably more difficult than actually reversing the stance on the topic. Most churchgoers don't even know what the regular magisterium is, much less that they have access to infallibility dogma and use it considerably more often and on less abstract matters than the pope.

In order to go back on it, they'd have to first throw out the stuff that gives them the authority to make an absolute, irreversible statement, and you know how politics are about voluntarily yielding power that shiny.

edited 4th May '12 4:15:10 PM by Pykrete

 602 Ramus, Fri, 4th May '12 4:16:22 PM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
That too, to expect an organization as large as the Catholic Church to change on anything that quickly is a laughable concept and thus why I prefer to take the slow route on it, it makes sure for a more complete reversal on things as opposed to leaving acceptable pockets.
The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 603 L Mage, Fri, 4th May '12 4:18:40 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
The issue is, that at this point I don't think any reasonable person can say that opposing Gay Rights (in America at any rate) is anything more then an exercise in futility. The question is if the Churches will be able to change stances quickly enough to avoid losing all of their influence and reputation.
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 604 Pykrete, Fri, 4th May '12 4:27:43 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
As far as the political chess is concerned, it should be noted that the lynchpin of getting the Catholic Church to eventually ease up on gay rights is actually not likely to be a head-on attempt at gay rights, but circumspectly via contraception. It's an issue that's also getting stonewalled by infallible doctrine, but the majority of dissent is far, far more alarming and they've already backed themselves into a dramatic corner over it.

 605 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 4:31:34 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
It's an issue that's also getting stonewalled by infallible doctrine
Really? As far as I know, there are no infallible teachings on this issue, or on anything related to it; but I might be wrong.*

edited 4th May '12 4:35:17 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 606 Pykrete, Fri, 4th May '12 4:34:12 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
IIRC the magisterium has been pushing for Humanae Vitae to be recognized as infallible. They've been avoiding directly saying it, but for the most part it's been treated that way since JPII went on his little crusade.

edited 4th May '12 4:37:28 PM by Pykrete

 607 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 4:48:06 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
Hm, interesting. Personally, I am somewhat ambivalent on the subject of contraception; but I have little liking for the doctrine of infallibility — I'm willing to accept it, barely and grudgingly, but I find it a rough and unsubtle tool.

But even if contraception was to be considered unlawful, one could argue that homosexual couples should be considered equivalent to sterile heterosexual couples and hence be allowed to marry, reproduction or no reproduction.

edited 4th May '12 4:48:44 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 608 Ramus, Fri, 4th May '12 8:13:24 PM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
The issue is, that at this point I don't think any reasonable person can say that opposing Gay Rights (in America at any rate) is anything more then an exercise in futility. The question is if the Churches will be able to change stances quickly enough to avoid losing all of their influence and reputation.

You overestimate how quickly politics work nor do you realize the amount of good the church does in a wide variety of areas. The church isn't going to be losing much influence very soon or really at all unless it goes out and deliberately does something to piss off everyone, like ordering the deaths of thousands of people.

edited 4th May '12 9:49:44 PM by Ramus

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 609 Matues, Sat, 5th May '12 1:03:06 AM Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Well, Let's see..

I am a 18 year old gay guy. I grew up in Mississippi, dead center in the bible belt- natural habitat of the Fundamentalist.

I was a Pentecostal Christian for the first part of my life. So, I was naturally disturbed when I hit puberty and noticed who I was attracted to.

So, I prayed that those impure thoughts would go away. God is good after all. They'll be gone in no time!

A year later, I've gone from praying to begging and crying and pleading that God would just make me normal. Church stopped being wonderful and became a living hell. I thought it was all my fault, so I started the vicious cycle of self-hatred that became my life.

I distanced myself emotionally from everyone, because I was afraid of being ostracized if people found out.

I kept begging, and guess what?

Nothing happened. My faith died after that. Eventually, I quit going to church. I stopped praying.

And I accepted myself as I was, and I felt better than I'd felt in years. And almost two years after that?

I still find myself emotionally distancing myself from people. I still heap self-hatred onto myself for even the most minor thing. I still haven't told anyone in my life about my sexuality. I still think they'd abandon me....

I wasted all of my teenage years on this, because of the ideas set forth by one local church.

I'm getting better, slowly, but I doubt I'll ever be able to become religious again.

All because I'm gay. Isn't that wonderful?
 610 Ramus, Sat, 5th May '12 2:32:47 AM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
Forgive me if I come off sounding insensitive, but did you really believe in the stuff before? Sounds like everything you understand of your religion you were fed to by other people.

Why not do some research and read some of the Bible yourself, multiple different versions of it, a larger variety of passages, etc, etc, and then do some soul searching. I'm not going to pretend that your home church is a good one, if it has failed to prove to be a mental haven for a group of people then it's failed at a major part of what makes it a church.

Either way, I think you'll get some sounder answers if you look a bit deeper, until then, I'd rather not listen to an appeal to pity. We've all had our difficulties in life for different reasons, none of which is ever fair, but that still means nothing unless you're willing to continue trying new solutions.
The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 611 Qeise, Sat, 5th May '12 2:36:22 AM from sqrt(-inf)/0 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
[up][up]I have no idea what your family is like, but some of them could get over their prejudices if you told him/her. Not saying you should necessarily tell them, just think about it. I think it would help a lot if you had someone close to you who knew. Try to widen your social circle, there must be people out there who don't care what your sexuality is.

I hope it gets better.
Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
 612 Carciofus, Sat, 5th May '12 2:40:55 AM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
[up][up]From a purely formal perspective, you are right. But on the practical side, it's not all that simple, I think, especially for an adolescent.

[up][up][up] For what's worth, I am sorry that (a variant of) my religion caused you emotional pain.

This does not imply that the religion in false, and not even that that variant (in which I don't believe, obviously, but still) is false; but still, that's something that should not have happened. Even putting aside the whole "is homosexual sex a sin" question, there is something deeply wrong if somebody is led to fear ostracism from a Christian community because of sin, let alone because of an impulse towards something that might or might not be a sin.

edited 5th May '12 3:17:31 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 613 Ramus, Sat, 5th May '12 3:00:11 AM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
Fair enough Carc, but on a practical side of everything, I don't ask for heroic levels of effort or that you be a genius, I just ask for that someone tries a few new routes. After all, I could talk about what it was like being homeless, alone, cripplingly paranoid, and living day to day for food, but that wouldn't add anything to a topic about a depression.
The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 614 Carciofus, Sat, 5th May '12 3:09:40 AM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
[up]Fair enough.

After all, I could talk about what it was like being homeless, alone, cripplingly paranoid, and living day to day for food, but that wouldn't add anything to a topic about a depression.
I dunno, I think that it would add something. It would not give any new clinical information about the nature of depression, obviously; but it would give a personal perspective about some of the hardships which are, sadly, often associated with depression.

edited 5th May '12 3:11:44 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 615 Aondeug, Sat, 5th May '12 3:30:04 AM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
It could depending on how he words and uses the experiences. Merely using an appeal to pity to win points wouldn't amount to much save to annoy some and greatly dishearten others. Not all depressed people ended up homeless for example which could lead to thoughts of "I don't have real problems...I should just shut up..." which just reinforces the cycle of self hate and such that the depressed often feel. Should the person be suicidal this could be even worse.

That's what Ramus is getting at. There's a way to use words and experiences in a productive fashion. Otherwise it is flailing about with words that can be useless or even dangerous.

edited 5th May '12 3:30:39 AM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 616 Ramus, Sat, 5th May '12 3:30:45 AM from some computer somwhere.
Lead.
Um, well, it was a financial depression. ANYWAY, going to cut that derail short, back to Homosexuality VS Religion The Only Religion We Apparently Know Anything About And Even Then The Details Are Sketchy As To What Happens Behind Those Closed Doors.

edit: Yes, basically, sharing your experiences isn't bad if you do it in a manner that adds to the topic at hand.

edited 5th May '12 3:31:26 AM by Ramus

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
 617 Aondeug, Sat, 5th May '12 3:31:44 AM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
Hey I'm here to offer the Buddhism side of things and go "RARRRLGRHL CHRISTIANITY ISN'T THE ONLY REASON AND/OR RELIGION BLUH BLUH"!
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 618 joeyjojo, Sat, 5th May '12 3:36:10 AM from The Magic Land Of Oz Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Storm the bastille!
@Aondeug: You're Buddhist? you never mentioned it beforetongue

edited 5th May '12 3:36:33 AM by joeyjojo

Mn Hovercraft st plen de nguills

 619 Aondeug, Sat, 5th May '12 3:40:14 AM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
CONVERT AND I'LL STOP MENTIONING IT EVERY POST.

The Aondeug way of conversion: Annoyance.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 620 Loni Jay, Sat, 5th May '12 3:53:16 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Aondeug's favourite tool of conversion: ALLCAPS!

Anyway, to reiterate the point I made a while ago - the most 'homophobia' I've encountered hasn't been in religious people. It's been in bratty teenage boys, most of whom hated religion as well.

It wouldn't be at all unusual for them to say something like 'religion is gay', or 'what, you go to church every week, that's so gay'. Probably with no intention of being ironic or whatever.
Be not afraid...
 621 Vericrat, Sat, 5th May '12 4:12:01 AM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
@Loni: I wonder if that's a regional difference. How prevalent is religion in Australia?

In the Southern U.S. where I live, you can't throw a rock without hitting a church. Being religious is the default, and most religions around here pretty much on the "Gay sex = sin" bandwagon whether they are open to homosexual members or not (the feeling I've gotten is the latter, but I have nothing to back that up).

I think the relationship between homophobia and religion is a somewhat complex one, but it is not direct causation. I can tell you that because I grew up an non-religious youth and was rather anti-homosexual. By the time I was an adult, I had shed that, though two guys doing anything sexual (including kissing) squicks me a little. So religion had nothing to do with it, and I'm guessing that many heterosexuals have that default squick reaction even without religious influence.

The problem is that my original homophobic tendencies lasted longer than they should have (past the age where I started using any sort of reason), and I do think religion played a role in that. It was just easy to continue to have those thoughts, easy to see myself right because such a majority of people around me believed with conviction that their preference was the right one. And that conviction came from their religion. They had been given permission to hate homosexuality beyond their own "this is gross" feelings from an authority they trust absolutely. And they used it.

For me, it came full circle. I started questioning my homophobic views when this complete tool that I despised screamed at a lesbian in our class, shouting the passage of Leviticus that said homosexual sex (between two men, ironically enough) was an abomination. And so his conviction turned me away, just as surely as the convictions of others around me had bolstered my own belief that I needn't question my homophobia.
THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
 622 Loni Jay, Sat, 5th May '12 4:26:02 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
I don't have anything to compare it to (lived here all my life), but it's not all that prevalent. It's not talked about in public a lot, although there isn't really a taboo against it either.

Most of those kids had the 'being gay is unmanly and something to be ridiculed for' brand of homophobia, I think. Sinfulness had nothing to do with it. It was just something that you could use as an insult, as a way of saying that the other person was less than you.

If you think that religion is the only thing that people use to try and make someone else less than them... you don't know people very well.

edited 5th May '12 4:27:08 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
 623 Ira The Squire, Sat, 5th May '12 4:30:58 AM from No idea. Measuring speed
Phyrexian Dalek
Actually, our current great opposition leader was used to be trained to become a priest, and entered politics after failing.
 624 Vericrat, Sat, 5th May '12 4:33:58 AM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
If you think that religion is the only thing that people use to try and make someone else less than them... you don't know people very well.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if so, I think you got the wrong impression. My assertion is that religion is not the root cause of homophobia (or any other form of "I'm better than you") as I myself experienced each without the other. People naturally want to feel better than others.

On the other hand, I do believe that religion has bolstered the convictions of the homophobes.
THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
 625 Loni Jay, Sat, 5th May '12 4:36:32 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
[up][up] Really? I knew he was religious, but I didn't know that.

[up] No, it wasn't directed at you; just at the thread in general. A couple of people here seem to think that religion is solely to blame for all the homophobia in the modern world, and if you could only remove the religion, suddenly America would be homophobia-free.
Be not afraid...
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