The Great and Grand Alternative History Discussion Thread.

Osama was a minor player (at best) during the campaign against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and was operating with his own resources, not US support (delivered to the Mujaheddin via Pakistan's ISI). As for the Taliban, some of their people may have been involved, but the group itself only formed after the Soviet puppet government collapsed in 1992.

In short, the quoted claim isn't supported by facts.

(Edit: Quote for page-topper context.)

edited 8th Sep '12 12:11:45 PM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump

Beat me to it.

...

Why the flying f**k should Iraq always be connected to Afghanistan even in the alternative? They're completely independent.

The Iraq War has nothing to do with Afghanistan but has everything to do with Israel, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.

Is that really new news to anyone at this point?

Also as mentioned above its inaccurate.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:32:56 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Because Bush tied Iraq to Afghanistan in the minds of the public, giving himself the support he needed to invade Iraq.

No 9/11 bombings, no support for random wars out in the desert.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

More like the 9/11 attacks made Americans paranoid as a nation. When the US government previously suspected Iraq of developing weapons of mass destruction, they just dropped a lot of bombs.

edited 9th Sep '12 11:59:01 AM by CPFMfan

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I thought the Afghanistan then Iraq thing was mostly a Bush thing.

Is there wide acceptance that Afghanistan and Iraq were heavily linked or was it just Bush's excuse for dragging America into another war in Iraq when Afghanistan looked reasonably doable?

Nothing like a protracted war effort abroad to distract from domestic issues.

For the longest time most people thought they were.

I'm baaaaaaack

Odd.

Perhaps I had an outsider's perspective. (Am not from the USA.)

It seemed painfully obvious that after 911, America was going to war and the later inclusion of Iraq in the war plan was either part of Bush's delusion or some secret strategy.

In 2003, I think about 60-70% of America believed that Iraq was linked to 9/11.

As of 2011 only 15% percent believe Iraq was linked to 911, however 31% believe that although Iraq was not involved in 911 it did give support to Al Qaeda. So all together, 46% believe that Iraq had some form of involvement with Al Qaeda.

It should be noted that not all of the people who believe that Iraq was somehow tied to Al Qaeda supported the Iraq War. And even some of those that supported the Iraq War disliked how it was handled.

These days most people blame George W. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield.

On a side note, there were actually "Weapons Of Mass Destruction" in Iraq. However when most people heard "Weapons Of Mass Destruction" they incorrectly translated that as "Nuclear Weapons."

edited 9th Sep '12 1:38:23 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

I figured Iraq WMD meant some gas and old Soviet era tanks or something like that.

If the USA wanted to find top of the line WMD like nukes, they'd have better luck just looking in their own armory.

Still, any real change if there were some nukes in Iraq? Maybe some that "fell off a truck from Russia"?

Or China. Those guys would sell almost anything for enough money.

Or for more hilarity, USA via CIA.

"Still, any real change if there were some nukes in Iraq?"

Israel, Iran, and Kuwait would promptly freak the fuck out.

edited 9th Sep '12 8:34:53 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Some of the posts on the 2012 American Elections thread inspired me to bring this thread back from the dead with this:

"What would happen to world events if a time traveler managed to kidnap Teddy immediately after leaving the office of the POTUS?"

Just humor me on this. I know it would be next to, if nearly impossible for someone to kidnap him.

edited 14th Oct '12 5:11:34 PM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

Faulty premise. Nobody could "manage to kidnap" Teddy.

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

Whereas if you gave him footage of 9/11 to watch and told him that the only way to stop the whole fuck up that came then and after is for him to falcon punch Bill Clinton and George W Bush and take the Presidency back he would probably come along.

Nah, he'd just warn them. In suitably awesome style.

(One night, as George Bush sleeps soundly in the white house...)

CRASH!

(Teddy Roosevelt tumbles through one of the windows. George Bush wakes with a start)

Bush: "AH! Liberals!"

Teddy: "No, you fool! It is me! Your predecessor's ghost from the past come back to give you a teeeerrrible warning!"

Bush: "Umm, you don't look very much like a ghost to me. And is that one of our guard dogs attached to your leg?"

Teddy: (Get off fido!) "Look, it was a metaphor, alright? I'm perfectly corporeal... look, real glass cuts!"

Bush: "Do you need the hospital?"

Teddy: "...maybe later." (sits down) "Now look here sonny, shut up, and listen to my teeerrrrible warning!"

Bush: "Wh...what warning?"

Teddy: "No plane must fly on the 9th of September."

Bush: "But... that's tomorrow!"

Teddy: "Is it? My God!" (looks at calendar) "Oh wait, the mysterious time traveller said it was 2001. You're safe."

Bush: "But if I shut down all the planes and nothing happens, I'll look like an idiot! The economy will lose millions! I'll never be re-elected!"

(Teddy looks in very close and gives Bush a very intimidating glare).

Teddy: "Let me put it this way son, do you want to be remembered as the president who let Al Qaeda fly planes into the twin towers?"

(A few seconds pass. George sweats a little).

Bush: "Umm... probably not?"

Teddy: "Well then you'll clear up this mess good and proper then, won't you? Remember, no planes on 9/11/2001!"

(Teddy jumps out the window, leaving Bush jr looking rather pale).

Bush: "What an awesome guy! I just wish I could've discussed politics, and economics, and we could have discussed my new puppy, and our holiday photo's..."

Teddy: ("Man I dodged a bullet getting out when I did").

...

(A few seconds later...)

White House Guard: "Sir, I'm going to need to see some ID."

Teddy: (With a bird's nest in his hair from tumbling two stories through a tree) "Can no one recognise me from their history books?! I'm Teddy Roosevelt! I used to live here!"

Guard: "Yep, totally insane. Come with me sir."

Teddy: "Aww shucks."

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Two thumbs up.

Robert F. Kennedy survives his assassination attempt on June 4th 1968 and continues campaigning in the primaries.

What happens next?

For reference:

edited 26th Nov '12 3:47:50 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

@ On Iraqi Nuclear Weapons: Iran almost certainly knew of Israel's Operation Opera*

. Destruction of the reactor was definitely in both Israel and Iran's interests*

As an aside, the Israeli F-16As used on the mission were almost certainly originally due for the IIAF

.

Keep Rolling On

Not sure if I posted this one already but: The South and North split at the Constitutional Convention over slavery.

edited 26th Nov '12 5:18:43 AM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est

Define 'North' and 'South'

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

What would eventually become the Confederacy and the Union in the Civil War. I know back then there were still Northern slaveholding states but it was on it's way out up here even then.

Trump delenda est

What if the USA (and all the other nations that joined after the USA) never got involved in WW 1?

Lets say Germany choose not to send the Zimmermann Notes.

edited 27th Dec '12 5:49:20 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Let's see...

World War I would end in total stagnation, as many of the soldiers were basically giving up on fighting right before the U.S. entered the war. The Great Depression does not happen in full tilt, due to being originally caused by financial factors set in motion by the Treaty of Versailles. Probably a number of government would be overthrown.

In the U.S., no Great Depression means no World War II, which means a lot of rocketry technology would not exist. No space race, no invasion of Japan and turnaround of their culture/economy means economically we would see no major advances in computer tech, so the Internet would probably not exist (and neither would this website). Overall, technology levels would be about 20-30 years behind, possibly more.

No baby boom either would mean we would culturally be less dynamic. Think of the Fallout universe, where Fifties culture remained dominant, and you'd have a good idea of what might happen. Rock and roll would probably be a quaint fad that died with Elvis (no telling if the Beatles would emerge). Newspapers would remain a lot more influential.

...yeah, us being in World War I was ultimately for the best.

edited 28th Dec '12 9:21:17 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Well remember, the USSR still exists.

So I'm not all that sure about WW 2 not happening.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016