Rename (alt titles crowner 6/19): Badass Spaniard

Hispanic is definitely the term we want to use. I mean, while Hispanic culture does kind of also refer to Mexico, it can be compared to the United States having an English culture similar to England, Canada, and Australia.

Let's face it, both the US and Mexico are outliers in their desire to be disassociated with their original culture.

Maybe, but then again all countries have their own culture, and wouldn't take kindly to be grouped under the name of the country that founded them. Which is why Hispanic is better than Spaniard; since the former has a broader reach, while the latter is by definition restricted to a country.

So if we all agree on a name, what should the description be? I obviously needs to be changed (since the way it is now is filled with imagery that is almost-exclusive to historical Spain, including the two page quotes.

I don't know about Hispanic. At least around here, it's associated much more closely with Mexico and South America than with Spain. I'd rather stick with "Spanish" or "Spaniard", unless there are issues with underuse.

edited 5th Apr '12 12:17:50 AM by troacctid

Would the Shrek version of Puss-In-Boots be an example?

Probably, he's invoking Spanish imagery, and he's voiced by someone from Spain.

The issue with Spaniard is with that the meaning of the word exclusively refers to someone from the country. Spanish could work as a compromise, but the problem is now we're invoking national nicknames, and then including people from other countries that speak the same language. I know that Americans wouldn't appreciate being bundled under "Brit", no Australian would consider themselves the same, etc.

That's why I suggested splitting the trope into two; the first keeping Spaniard while the latter taking Hispanic or Latino. It makes the name accurate.

Is "Hispanic" really more appropriate than "Spaniard", though? There's a certain something that makes this trope feel more natural to Vega but not to El Fuerte, to El Cid but not to Simón Bolivar.

Once you take out the influence of Zorro (which took place in a Spanish colony) and the various roles played by Antonio Banderas (himself born in Spain), I think you'd be hardpressed to find many non-Spanish examples of the trope.

EDIT: As further example on the matter, compare to Husky Russkie. That article itself refers to large Russians, but it also extends to other "non-Russian" parts of the former Soviet Union, such as the Ukraine. But the PUREST examples of that trope are Russian, just as the purest examples of this trope are Spaniard. Even the word "Spaniard" carries a level of badass in it that surpasses the word "Spanish", in the same sense that Jack Attack carries a level of badass in its naming. :-D

edited 12th Apr '12 3:18:36 PM by BaronGrackle

I thought we're going to remove or redirect Badass Spaniard? Since being Hispanic or Spanish doesn't automatically make one a badass. It's just as "shallow" as being a driver or an anthropomorphic animal.

Well there are certain characterizations a badass hispanic gets like a Zorro Clone, gangster, and such.... splitting this by those characterizations would be good.

It's a stock character, Ookami. I'd rename it personally myself since it's narrower than the name implies, though.

^ Before anyone goes and renames it, could someone disagree with my post above? Am I wrong in comparing the name to Husky Russkie, which is purest when used for a Russian but also occasionally used for a Ukrainian or former-U.S.S.R.ian? But still, no one suggests calling that article Hussky Slav?

Again, the counterexamples focus on Zorro and Antonio Banderas characters who happen to not be Spaniards.... even though Banderas doesn't lose his Spanish features, demeanor, or accent when performing these roles.

It's akin to a British actor playing an evil American, without changing his accent or mannerisms. It would still count as Evil Brit.

edited 13th Apr '12 10:38:55 PM by BaronGrackle

With Huskie Ruskie though all those countries are right next to each other, were apart of the USSR in living memory. Latin America hasn't been Spanish colonies for a far time now, and they've developed enough in media to make them distinct from Spaniards.

Personly though I'd cut the trope since it doesn't really add much; it's being used now as "Badasses who speak Spanish." Repurposing it into a Swashbuckler character type might work instead.

In what way is it stock though? It implies that by being Latin you are badass. I know about being based off of Zorro though, so we can base the trope from it.

It's not "Latino=Badass." That's what the name suggests, but it's about a stock character who is Latin and also Badass, in a certain way. It's like a Badass Biker - Biker does not necessarily equal Badass, but the combination of the two is a very common stock character. For example, one of the older biker films is Easy Rider, featuring two Bikers who are not Badass. So they aren't that trope. But then you have Wild Hogs, where the protagonists aren't badass at all but wish they were, and Ray Liotta and crew actually are Badass Biker characters.

Wouldn't Badass Latin be a good compromise? In the way Latin Love is a good catch-all.

That would work, I suppose, although I really, really hate the fact that "Latin" now means "Hispanic" instead of actually Latin. Why aren't us Italians included as Latins? I mean, the language and culture originated on the boot, for fuck's sake. But, that's getting off topic.

Err, the entire topic is essentialy semantics over what to call the trope.

Well, I still say the purest examples of this trope are the Spaniards, and that most of the non-Spaniards should be cut from examples. Part of the baggage to this is the accent, the stereotype of flamboyant pride, the flamenco and bullfighting and Toledo steel. It's the reason why Inigo Montoya was a "Spaniard" in the fictional geographic world of The Princess Bride, instead of a Central or South American. (Similar to how his boss was a "Sicilian", as opposed to just an Italian. Subtleties.)

Well, I'll stop now, since I'm in the minority. That's how it goes, sometimes. :-)

Wait, "stock character" reasoning is legit? I always thought it's disallowed due to being lacking in trait.

It's a stock character type because there are a set of associated traits and it's a recurring pattern for those traits to be combined in a certain way. Why wouldn't that be allowed?

Maybe if the traits are vague, or they're just a combination of other character types?

Personally, I just flat out dislike all of the Badass Insert Country Here tropes. Most of them seem to end up being (mis)used for anyone who's from that country and gets in a fight or is good at fighting in the opinion of the editor.

I think there's something in the concept of the Flamboyant Fighting Hispanic; who has an outrageous (or genuine) Spanish accent, values Toledo steel above all others, prides himself on his manly bullfighting prowess and dances a mean flamenco. For his Mexican counterparts, he drinks only tequila, dresses like a mariachi and may even be one. There's a good chance they're all good Catholics who confess after committing acts of Badassery. May possibly be related to, or otherwise evoke la Majo. Especially in costuming. Into there would go your Zorro Clones, swashbuckling Spanish heroes, often with that particular type of moustache that's somehow distinctively Spanish, though no one knows quite how or why.

Thus, I favour cutting Badass Spaniard as a trope which encourages misuse and is basically Badass + trait and replacing it with something to cover the swashbuckling Spaniard and his flamboyant friends and relatives.

edited 20th Apr '12 7:06:11 AM by troublegum

Dashing Hispanic? Daring Hispanic? Daring Dashing Hispanic? Sorry, just trying to come up with names that convey the character type without committing too closely to a weapon or a nationality.

Yeah, instead of being Badass <country> it should be more specific and AVOIDING the word badass.

I'm actually up for avoiding the word "badass", but I figured that was just because I'm a prude. :-P

Really, EVERY nationality has very specific stereotypes, and it also has specific tough guy stereotypes (there's even one for the French, which just adds skill and competence to the "Frenchy" mannerisms).

It's a little overwhelming at the thought of making articles for every, single, one. Though I suppose they're much too different from each other to just lump them all together. Ah well.

edited 23rd Apr '12 7:03:34 AM by BaronGrackle

Why not make a Badass national trope for characters who are A) Badasses and B) embody their nation of origin?