Ambiguous Name: Fox News Liberal

I think the trope Fox News Liberal should be renamed. The basic idea of the trope is, "person who's supposed to represent the opposing side, but is innocuous and generally ends up agreeing with the people he's supposed to oppose (and criticizing the people he's supposed to agree with)."

The problems I see with the name are:

• Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement: By giving it a title closely connected to US politics, we're just begging for political arguments. There end up being lots of real-life examples.
  • Related: Many of the real-life examples are themselves debatable. For US liberals, Alan Colmes is the gold-plated example of a Fox News Liberal. Conservatives don't see him that way, seeing him as someone who can be counted on to defend a Democratic president no matter what. I don't want to argue which POV is correct—my point is that real-life examples are going to provoke those kinds of disagreements.
• The title is ambiguous. After all, different kinds of liberals appear on Fox News (and same with conservatives on MSNBC). There are the tame ones, who end up agreeing with their hosts. Then there are the extremists, the ones whose ideas are way out there, and serve to reinforce the prejudices of the audience in the opposite way (by letting them think, "ah, people on the other side are all nuts"). And then there are mainstream ones, ones who honestly represent their side and positions in a sensible way. I could give examples, but, again, that would provoke arguments.
• The characteristic described is not limited just to politics, anyway. It seems to me that it would apply just as well, say, to a single vampire in a show who keeps acknowledging how bad other vampires are, a single Klingon who keeps acknowledging the ways Humans are better, etc.

My first thought would be: (a) Change the title to something explicitly non-political, and note that the political situation is just one of many. (I'd suggest the title "Opposition Mascot", but I'm open to a better one.) And possibly, (b) Mark it as "No Real Life Examples", except when it pops up in a work. (e.g. if a character on The West Wing makes a crack about Alan Colmes, that's tropeworthy; if a troper feels like "ooh that Jim Geraghty is such a squish to keep going on Morning Joe", that doesn't qualify.)

edited 30th Mar '12 2:10:37 PM by Narsil

For the record, this term seems to be a pre-existing one. Google

And I like to see an actual Flame War before swinging the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment-hammer.

I don't think either regular Fox News viewers or liberals are likely to object to this trope name. Some of Fox's tame liberals might. Still, it's very US-centric, touches on real life politics, and invites real world examples (which should be offered only cautiously). This could be called Pet Strawman or something.

As a pre-existing term used off the wiki, is the term limited to pundits on news shows with a specific political narrative filling a straw role in debates and discussions, or is it also used to refer to actual politicians?

Personally, I find the Real Life descriptions of actual politicians and their behaviors with other political parties while serving in office on the page to be a little questionable. When I think of Fox News Liberal, I'd, at least, think it would have connections to a common personality in cable news, specifically in cable news.

edited 30th Mar '12 5:32:27 PM by SeanMurrayI

I vote killing the Real Life section.

I'm also not keen on the name. It presupposes certain assumptions about American politics and news media which may not necessarily be universally held.

Fox News is: 1. Conservative network. 2. Uses Blatant Lies a lot 3. Republican

Thus, the title is contradicting the subject.

Say someone new is hired on Fox News. He is to be a liberal, appealing to a different set of people than the rest of the conservative cast. But, the title Is In Name Only, and the new member is as conservative as the rest of the cast.

This is how I see this trope is.

edited 30th Mar '12 6:38:10 PM by spacemarine50

How about something like A Credit To Your Strawman?

I don't see why this isn't chairs. It is pretty much just "strawman" right? A certain specific flavor of?

I think you're confusing "chairs" with The Same But More Specific.

Even though it's a pre-existing term, I have no trouble with killing it. For one, it's a pre-existing term for a specific example, not for the trope itself. Conservatives on MSNBC are not "Fox News liberals". Which is another problem: it's specific to one side of the debate. Do we have an MSNBC Conservative redirect?

^^ No, both, I mean it is Chairs But More Specific.

Should I go ahead with these changes anyway: 1-add to the 1st sentence of the article "...and being the stereotype of his organization at worst, his 'title' being In Name Only" or somewhere along those lines 2-not sure to replace Informed Attribute with In Name Only, or which one to use. 3- Move some of the Real Life Examples to the Live TV section.

edited 31st Mar '12 1:50:46 AM by spacemarine50

To spacemarine50— My concern about your proposed Action 1 is that it makes this trope refer to two different (and practically opposite) things. As described, the trope refers to guests like a hypothetical Mike Milksop, the "liberal" who always says things like "Well, yes, you're right, the Democrats are behaving badly here." Adding your sentence would make it apply just as well to Edna Extremist, the "liberal" who says "The Democrats are doing all they can in the confines of your racist corrupt structure—we really need to smash the system and start over!" Both types appear on Fox (particularly on the opinion shows), both cater to the prejudices of the viewers, but they don't have much else in common.

That's one of my big problems with the trope name—it's ambiguous. Several different kinds of liberal appear on Fox News. And of course, outside the US the terms are going to be much less clear (in Europe, the word "liberal" often means nearly the opposite of what it means in the US).

Please don't claim something is ambiguous or being misused unless you have evidence of misuse/underuse.

edited 31st Mar '12 5:49:41 AM by SeptimusHeap

No, this is a specific character type used for a specific purpose and meaning in a narrative, but I don't think it needs a real life section.

What bothers me more in the Real Life section is that "Fox News Liberal" in Real Life has also the meaning "A Democrat with Republican-like political views, a Democrat In Name Only" and most examples seem to fit this definition rather than the trope.

My only concern is that people outside the US might not understand the name.

"might"? Well, give proof of that, please. Renaming something with no evidence at all is bad form.

I'm still feeling pretty sure that Fox News Liberal is a "role" exclusive to political pundits on news shows with a particular bias, otherwise what's to set this apart from just a normal Straw Man?

The majority of examples, Real Life or not, aren't describing any characters with ties to news punditry or filling a "role" in a news show's (real or fictional) political narrative. This page could probably get cut for no other reason than that cable news structure (explicitly suggested by the term Fox News Liberal) has very little to do with what's actually getting discussed on the page when that really shouldn't be the case.

edited 31st Mar '12 8:34:39 AM by SeanMurrayI

I object mainly because it's too contentious and misleading. Like every time you see a liberal on Fox News it's an example of this trope, or that Fox News only "allows" liberals to appear who are inoffensive. And in any case, the opposite is a lot more common - the Token Conservative on a panel of mainstream media liberals, who frequently isn't actually even an actual conservative! (David Gergen is at the top of the A-list for producers looking to fill this role.)

It's also ambiguous if you don't know the context or the pre-existing term, as it sounds like "a liberal TV viewer who, going against type, prefers Fox News". (My mom would be the inverse of that, as she's a conservative who, for reasons I can't quite fathom, likes MSNBC.)

I rather like Pet Strawman as a name. It's clear and concise, and at least a little bit witty.

I agree with the idea of cutting the Real Life section, though perhaps a paragraph on Alan Colmes could be fit into the trope description, as he's so often cited for this.

OK. So, the claim is that it's misleading and/or misused. Do we have evidence of that or it's just at this point?

I was wild mass guessing myself.

I'm just studying the examples on the page. Not counting the Real Life section, only ONE example from a work of fiction directly concerns a character in a news media position (Under The Dome), and nothing in that example mentions anything to suggest that the character even shapes a political narrative in a manner outlined in the description, anyway.

The only examples that accurately reflect anything relevant to what Fox News Liberal actually means are in the Real Life section that a lot of people here are expressing desire to cut, anyway.

edited 31st Mar '12 10:09:21 AM by SeanMurrayI

Clocking due to lack of activity.