Star Wars

That's not hilarious at all. That sounds terrible. Just once, I'd like the theme in a Star Wars story to not be, "People are drooling idiots who need magical supermen to show them the golden path."

Yeah, clearly YMMV on if that is hilarious. I find it rather annoying. Its like a bad attempt on Refuge in Audacity.

Maybe it would be funny if there wasn't the high likelihood that the people in-universe are buying it, Sith Mind Trick be damned.

maybe the Jedi wouldn't need to save their backs every couple decades if the population would not be so dumb.

edited 13th Mar '12 2:21:05 AM by 3of4

It's still the kind of justification a fascist would use, though. "These drooling masses are just so stupid, give these genetically superior supermen absolute power. They always know what's best!"

I'm afraid that for Star Wars, having the public as an incompetent, mindless crowd is a Necessary Weasel. If the public resolved problems on its own, it would pretty much kill the conflict of the story, and what's a story without conflict?

When you think about it, having a situation that only one person or small group can resolve while everyone else pretty much sits around and is useless is an OLD concept. For example, would Super Mario Bros be any fun if everyone saved Princess Peach from Bowser, and Mario didn't get to contribute much to the rescue?

Also, Star Wars is based on Greek and Roman mythology. I can tell you that I've read some Roman history material, and it is full of instances where the patricians resolve problems, and the plebeians, with the exception of a few "higher" individuals among them, are a mostly incompetent, mindless crowd of people that can't take care of themselves! Star Wars is not the first work to have a Roman viewpoint on life and it will not be the last!

With that said, it would be nice if there were Star Wars books that looked through the viewpoints of average citizens. If anything else, it would show us readers what they think, and it might help in explaining how they'll believe everything they hear and read!

In Roman history, by the time the Roman Republic started getting packed with lemmings, a lot of the upper classes in the Senate were plebeians, or at least members of the equestrian order - read: knights (Cicero, Cato, etc). The same holds true for Augustus. The patrician/plebeian distinction wasn't really relevant in the period where the Republic fell, and many plebeians were quite wealthy and influential.

And no, having idiotic masses does not create meaningful conflict. It can, but it's pretty bad writing. I'm not saying heroes should be worthless, talentless people. Heroes, by pretty much any definition, are exceptional at something. But to have galaxy-changing events be decided by one person, and not by virtue of their morals or their skills, but by their birthright just reeks of tired old-world values. It gives the warped aesop that true heroes are born, not made through skill or virtue and that more heroic, but more mundane people should defer to the Chosen One simply because they are chosen.

edited 13th Mar '12 10:14:08 AM by CrimsonZephyr

ehm...i think you get my argument backwards. I'm saying if the population would not be so dead stupid the jedi wouldn't be needed (storywise) for more than law enforcement (not lawmaking), the occasional mediation to keep the peace and all and such serving the elected government. It's just that there has not been such one which wasn't either corrupt, evil or stupid to get the jedi, in story, to do what they are supposed to do (and want to do).

its the general falling quality of the setting in that regard :/ its enforcing stupitidy in that regards which by now really gets jarring. First we get the stupid bothan, then they OOC Omas and after that Daala...

I'm still not sure why Daala became Chief of State. Or, for that matter, why, in nearly 20 years of in-universe chronology, an election has not been described or even referenced in any of the books. Seriously, Star by Star was the last book to treat the Alliance as the democratic federation that it is supposed to be.

to set the stage for Fate, naturally. Which does not make it better... *continues to read apocalypse*

In universe Daala was basically brought into office by the military (and her lover -.-)

Thank the force Timothy Zahn writes another book in the forseeable future...

edited 13th Mar '12 10:56:30 AM by 3of4

Yeah, I had a hard time understanding how Natasi "I Satan" Daala got to be put in charge of the Galactic Alliance. Once I saw that part revealing that she became Nek Bwua'tu's lover, however, that's when I had a moment of Fridge Brilliance. Daala once made it up to a higher position in the Galactic Empire than she could have normally (due to her being a woman and all that). How? By prostituting herself to Grand Moff "Alderaan-killer" Tarkin! She prostituted herself to Bwau'tu to become the new Chief of State of the G.A. Hey, she probably figured that if she could do it once, she could do it again!

Also, you have a point there about the G.A. not acting democratic. It had been formed during the Yuuzhan Vong wars after the destruction of the democratic New Republic, and I bet the people who formed it were not thinking about democracy right then. Then Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus takes over, and turns the G.A. into a dictatorship (probably as a parallel to the U.S.A. and how it seems to act like a dictatorship when it comes to the War On Terror). Clearly, the politicians have not changed the G.A. back into a democracy...at least, not all the way!

Still, let me ask you this: in Star Wars Legacy, the G.A. is more or less the democracy it's supposed to be. How did it manage to transition from the quasi-dictatorship in Fate Of The Jedi to democracy in Legacy?

"Still, let me ask you this: in Star Wars: Legacy, the G.A. is more or less the democracy it's supposed to be. How did it manage to transition from the quasi-dictatorship in Fate of the Jedi to democracy in Legacy?"

Through another unfortunate trope: The GA became Genre Savvy that Humans Are Bastards. Look at the principal Alliance characters in positions of high command. Count the humans. Now look at the number of Imperial black shirts. Count the humans.

Then again, there's always Fey'lya. You have to wonder why people don't just bomb the shit out of Bothawui - a planet whose cultural hat is Chronic Backstabbing Disorder...doesn't seem like a reliable ally.

edited 13th Mar '12 11:17:20 PM by CrimsonZephyr

That'd be like nuking Germany just because of Hitler.

Well, I wasn't entirely serious.

Kuat has a worse reputation than Bothawui anyway. Their two most recent senators have been black shirts. They did a hatchet job on Corellia, too, changing it from "Founding father of the Republic and birthplace of the Rebel Alliance" to "Space!Yugoslavia."

You know what planet I've started to really hate? Hapes. I hate everything about the Hapes Consortium. They had a strange level of importance to the universe simply because Jacen Solo fucked their Queen Mother. The Galactic Alliance, which has the largest navy in the world, is somehow hamstrung without the support of a third-rate isolationist power that has only lifted travel and trade restrictions for the past 40 out of 25,000 years of recorded history. Yet, somehow, the go-to societies for any Star Wars story these days are 1.) The Mary Suetopia Imperial Remnant, because dictatorships are AWESOME! 2.) Mandalorians and 3.) The Hapes Consortium.

probably because Hapans (like the Empire) can simply send their fleets as their ruler wishes (more or less) without something annoying as approval from the senate. Also, Battle Dragons are quite nice ships, after they've been upgraded with modern tech. They do have a lot of them and not as much space to cover as the GFFA and as such cann probably move them around easier.

It helps that the current Queen (and until Lot F the Queen Father) are/do think highly of Jedi.

edited 14th Mar '12 4:28:16 AM by 3of4

You make a good point about the Galactic Alliance being commanded by aliens by the time of Star Wars Legacy. You know what else? The same can be said for the Jedi Order by that time. Sure, Cade Skywalker and Azlyn Rae are human and Jedi, but they left, didn't they? The entire Jedi Order has pretty much become alien, in more than one sense of the word! I get the impression that the whole thing was supposed to be a Deconstruction of how the protagonist of Star Wars is always a human, and never an alien. That's why they made Cade a Jerkass, to make you wonder if you should root for him just because he's human like you and me!

edited 15th Mar '12 5:52:43 AM by TiggersAreGreat

If the Bothans' whole trait is chronic backstabbing disorder, that would apply to the whole species, not just Fey'Lya. At that point, I would say at least quarantine the planet if not punish them more severely. It's hard to believe that a whole planet would be like that. . .

But this is Star Wars we're talking about. They probably are.

Not all Bothans are bad. Just check out Hosk Trey'lis from Star Wars Legacy. Poor guy, and he was so brave, right to the end of his life!

I have to say that the Star Wars Insider revealed some interesting tidbits from the three writers Aaron Allston, Christie Golden, and Troy Denning when they were interviewed about Fate Of The Jedi. For starters, A.A. and T.D. answered questions at least 90% of time, and C.G. only gave answers a few times. While that doesn't sound fair, I believe this is supposed to reflect that C.G. is the rookie of the three, and she therefore has less authority in answering questions than the other two.

They did say that this set of stories is supposed to contain elements of The Odyssey, like going into the underworld Hades, and a location containing a one-eyed creature, and things like that!

They even said that originally the antagonists were going to be the One Sith (you know, those tattooed guys from Star Wars Legacy?). However, Dark Horse apparently had a problem with that, maybe because it would mess up Legacy. So the three authors changed it to an entirely different group of Sith, and they feel that this was probably for the best.

HOWEVER... Apocalypse contains a surprise! You know that vision Luke had at the beginning of Legacy Of The Force, with that dark man who was a Sith? Everybody in and out of the story thought that dark man was Jacen...but it wasn't. Instead, it was Darth Krayt of the One Sith. Jacen did what he did because in his vision, he saw Allana by Krayt's side, and he just could not let that happen! I've heard it said that Legacy is only a "possible future" and that it might get overwritten by more "official" stories!

Do you see that as good news or as bad news?

Legacy "overwritten"? That's bullshit. Legacy is one of the best things to come out of the SWEU in the last ten years.

Legacy was good, I agree. It made up for some pretty bad stuff that had come out in the past few years before it.

E: Also, anyone have any good book recommendations for the CIS? The only books about the CIS have them being incompetent jerks. Are there any books where they do anything of interest, or where the main characters are CIS?

edited 15th Mar '12 4:28:36 PM by Funden

Now that you ask, I don't think there are any. Since the CIS are basically Straw!Confederates with a side of Straw!Capitalists, it'd be hard to find a story where the heroes are in any position of real power, unless they're one of the dirt-poor local Rim factions that the CIS hoodwinked, without being villain protagonists.

I'd like to see Corellia reconstructed in the post ROTJ EU, though. Get rid of the bomb throwing anarchist and fascist-America vibes and portray it as the cradle of democracy and founding father of the Republic that it is reputed to be in literally every other source.

edited 15th Mar '12 6:08:29 PM by CrimsonZephyr

Ugh, that's annoying. The CIS are one of the most compelling factions in SW, imo, and they always get the shaft. It bugs me.

Hell, I might go searching for fan fiction at this point.

Star Wars fanfiction gets flooded by Anakin/Ahsoka shipping these days.

or Barriss/Ahsoka

Though, out of curiosity, what makes the CIS compelling? They seem really one-note to me.

edited 15th Mar '12 6:20:33 PM by CrimsonZephyr

Re Bothans: Then they are not a planet of one hat. Just most of a hat, maybe.

I'm nowhere near far into the series, but I did get my hands on the second in the heir to the empire trilogy. I'm sick, so I may wait to read it. That IS the Thrawn rilogy, correct? There's not another one with him floating around?

edited 15th Mar '12 6:52:26 PM by Journeyman

The Thrawn Trilogy is the series where he appears in person. Zahn actually wrote a whole series concerning Thrawns shenanigans. Here's the list in in-universe chronology:

• Outbound Flight
• The Thrawn Trilogy
• The Hand of Thrawn Duology
• Survivor's Quest

He also wrote:

• Allegiance
• Choices of One

which have more to do with Mara Jade, but pretty good reads regardless. And they're all Made Of Win.

Well, there's a couple reasons.

I tend to enjoy mechanized armies, and the CIS managed to do that without the corny looking robots you see quite a bit. All the mechs and droids were unique and VERY interesting looking.

The fact that it was against the Republic is another point. I tend to dislike the Old Republic a bit. It was good and tried it's best, but it was a pretty bad system, imo (from what we've seen).

And there's just something else that makes it interesting. I can't really describe my fascination with the Soviet Union either, and this is kind of the same thing.

The CIS is pretty much worse, though. It's entire leadership is composed of Corrupt Corporate Executivess and the atrocities they're depicted committing pale in comparison to what the Republic does during the war. Plus, their political philosophy tends to be everything I dislike about free-market-friendly conservatism turned Up To Eleven...according to the EU, at least.

But meh, neither faction was written that well in the Prequel era.

edited 15th Mar '12 7:44:52 PM by CrimsonZephyr