The Constructive Criticism Thread

I'll wait one more day for anyone else who wants to give feedback, then end my turn for whoever wants to be next.

@Pablo I feel that I've gone far enough with the character concepts and the worldbuilding that I would have to retool them entirely if I did just focus solely on vanilla Egyptian myth, and I just realized that there could be a form of social commentary found on the world I did build concerning the "manufactured" cultural identity of (present-day) Singapore.

That said, I do agree that there is a lack of social commentary with regards to what happens before the story picks up, so I'll work on that since I also see it as an opportunity to make Wendy's character and actions more believable, something else also lacking which you and War pucked up on.

Though is there a "right" way of going about this since I want the story to focus more on the shroom-necklace-induced adventure rather than whatever messages I want to send or social realities be made more aware of?

edited 21st May '16 12:00:46 AM by zaqareemalcolm

Unless I am misunderstanding the question, there is no right way to improve your story with an eye to keeping focus on the other-worldly adventure part. Either that or I am reaching the limit of my expertise. That feels like it is leaving constructive criticism territory and heading into personal preference territory.

I guess maybe just make sure to show her reacting to things? It is entirely possible that my concern for her character is because you did not describe her expression in every panel she is in. If I could see what she was thinking, then maybe I would find her more believable.

I mean, I have seen characters who behave like that. But the mental image of a normal teen I had built in the first two pages fought with her more animated later reactions and fast changing of her mind. This is something that could, in theory, be smoothed out by the information conveyed by her body language.

And if your work is about the adventure, then your audience will get over an unbelievable viewpoint character. Unrealistic characters are only a major problem in character dramas.

So I guess maybe, if your goal is to create a fantastic adventure through a fantastic land, then the best advice I can give is: After a point, disregard my advice. It won't be worth it to spend too much time on character if that is not what the story is about.

I don't know if this is how you interpreted my question: what I meant was that I do think adding some social commentary and some believability is good advice I'll take, but I'm worried that the former might become the main focus of the comic rather than the plot itself. Though your answers were still helpful things I'll keep in mind all the same.

Well, it's probably good to take any large-scale advice you get here with a grain of salt, and if you've already designed this whole thing with a custom mythology, that's fine. As long as you have enough room in your story to explain what we need to know in a way that doesn't feel shoehorned in and still leave us with an interesting story, it's fine. I was just worried because, based on the original plan you mentioned, I wasn't sure if you had enough room to make it not feel confusing, but I obviously have no way of judging that.

But one thing you should consider is making it clearer early on that this is a custom mythology. I did think it was Egyptian at first, as one of my comments makes abundantly clear. (And I do mean abundantly.)

Wow, changing the rules really jump started this thread. Awesome.

Alright, so I'll have to work on clarity/presentation then. I'll take note of that.

I'll end my turn now since it doesn't seem anyone else is coming to give feedback.

edited 22nd May '16 1:41:28 AM by zaqareemalcolm

I guess it's my turn now? Keep in mind that these are short scripts, each of them is a page long, but one day, I'll put in longer scripts. Also, the second script contains MAJOR spoilers for Zootopia, and the comedy is a bit mature on both scripts. Nothing is explicit is shown, but I just want to be safe than sorry. The main criticisms I'm looking for is the format on how I write my scripts, how well I describe the scenes into words. (If what I'm saying makes any sense)

Just wanted to drop by for a second and say that I've forfeited my turn to Raven_Shadow. (I was up after Dokemon Studios.) I started a full-time job last Monday and it's sapped a lot of my time and energy, so work on my submission has been progressing a lot slower than I thought it would.

edited 22nd May '16 7:16:36 PM by CrystalGlacia

First note: Please don't spoiler stuff if you are also putting it in a folder, keep in mind that folders only work once per forum page, and please use \\\ instead of multiple spoilered paragraphs as the former does not allow click revealing.

Okay, I reviewed both scripts.

Three possible spelling/grammar errors:

in one of these the visiting rooms in an angle

I don't get you, Bellweather

I am still getting these out of my mouth

I have very little expericence with comic scripts. The formatting looks fine to me. The jokes were okay. They seem standard fare for gag-a-day scripts. I can't actually find anything wrong with them. (By which I mean the scripts, not just the jokes.)

edited 23rd May '16 8:40:24 PM by war877

One other thing: Are you having someone else draw this, or are you drawing it yourself? Because if it's the latter, then the formatting really doesn't matter. (Seriously, take a gander at the commentaries made by some webcomic artists who work independently. When they talk about their scripts, it's to show what a mess they are, but you can't tell from the finished product.)

I'm the one who's going to draw actually. But I guess I just worked on the format, because when I'm showing ideas to people, and I don't have the confidence to draw yet, just showing the dialogue isn't enough.

For the record, I didn't have much knowledge on the website's advanced coding. Mostly because, I didn't expect that I should put my script in the actual TV Tropes page. I thought I would have to send in a Microsoft Word file through a private message. So transferring the script to the TV tropes format was a bit difficult, as I have to pay attention to what would be changed from the preview, so that the post I sent in doesn't look like a bunch of garbled text. I'm not trying to make an excuse here, I just wanted to let you know.

Okay, I think I've gotten enough feedback for the scripts, they are all fair, at least for short scripts. Next time I do this, I'll have a longer work of fiction.

By far the best way to handle it is to open a Google Drive account, create a doc for your work, and share the link with us. Include a warning, in the post that contains the link, about the spoilers.

As far as the script is concerned, I think you need to include more description, things like the setting, gestures, direction of gaze, etc., all as appropriate of course. Were I an artist, I would wonder what kind of visual impression you were going for.

edited 24th May '16 7:47:32 PM by DeMarquis

Okay, it's been four days. I think DokemonStudios meant that they are passing the torch on for now. Who's next?

Well, technically we don't automatically move on until it's been a week or 5 people have criticized.

I meant four days without posts. Looking at the dates, three days. A week will be up in a day.

The next person on the list is Raven_Shadow. Except we're kind of in a weird situation with them- according to their post history, they have been without an internet-capable device since the 25th of May. However, their submission has been posted to the thread here.

Do you guys want to critique what they've posted anyways, and PM them the links to the posts in this thread containing those critiques for when they are able to access the site (which may not be until the Fall), or do you guys just want to skip on to me?

Bear in mind that if you guys take the latter option, I'm probably not going to actually post my thing until tonight, or tomorrow. I just finished writing it yesterday, and want to let it rest a bit.

I think there are ethical concerns with critiquing unpublished materials without explicit consent. I will only look at that if the owner left instructions.

Well, either way, Raven_Shadow isn't going to be around to respond to any critique and they may change their mind by the time they're able to come back.

Since Dokemon Studios's turn ended earlier today, am I up tomorrow?

Go for it.

Here we go.

The Pseudo-Retirement of a Painted Servant (working title) is a Science Fantasy novella about the backstory of a particular supporting character who is planned to appear in some novel-length stories of mine. I'm writing this just as practice- this is my first multipart, longer-than-a-couple-thousand-words-length project ever. This story in particular is not going to be published, and I have no intentions of attempting any kind of publishing that isn't a Web Serial Novel within the foreseeable future. At the same time, however, my biggest problem seems to be that I know what I want to do and my intentions don't seem to be misguided, but I haven't been able to make anybody want to read it.

If you see any technical mistakes (that means grammar, punctuation, formatting, clunky wording where you know what I was aiming for, or other typos), please address them on the GDoc as comments if you are at all comfortable with using that platform. They're not what I'm really concerned about, because those aren't hard or time/work-intensive to fix. I've come here because I'm worried about how I'm dispensing and presenting this plot. I'd like to call this a sanity check, but I've been too optimistic about this story in the past.

What I've posted for you guys is the first chapter- it's a little long, it's 4.9k words, and I fully expect that I'll have to cut it down. To make a long story short, I don't know where this (or my solo writing skills as a whole) stands in terms of whether it succeeds as an opener, or whether any of the concepts within are any good. Here's some more specific concerns that I'm having.

• Does it feel like anything is happening?
• Does this first chapter make you want to read any further?
• Do you think any part of it- characters, plot, worldbuilding, etc. -is interesting? What isn't interesting to you?
• Any better ideas on how this story should start that aren't fast-paced physical action? I know the start isn't super-dynamic, but at the same time, the story is about low-key character exploration- there's maybe going to be three fast-paced action scenes total. I haven't actually been able to find how a low-key, non-actiony story should start, since in my experience, starting with action just gives a completely wrong impression of what the story is about.
• Do any of the descriptions feel like they belong? The protagonist is in a fairly odd situation and setting (by our standards) that is relatively normal to him. I tried to keep the descriptions very heavily pared down, just to prevent a Featureless Plane of Disembodied Dialogue, and to get across some aspects of what makes him, this setting, and his situation different. Especially aspects that can't be revisited later.

And finally, here's the link.

edited 30th May '16 4:19:21 AM by CrystalGlacia

Well, I read the first half. I am far too tired to give a full analysis, and don't want to until I finish. I ran across a lot of stuff I would not recommend, but might ignore if it matched the narrator's voice or writing style. For some reason I am having a hard time getting either the voice or the style. Maybe I am just that tired. Here's what I got so far:

I don't like the first two paragraphs, but love the third. This is a problem, because quite a few people stop at two.

I would completely rewrite the first two paragraphs. Several times. Cut out everything you don't need. Add in moody descripters of environment. Don't touch proper nouns.

Save proper nouns for later paragraphs if remotely possible.

I can't help more with the first two without getting a handle on the voice and the style. Those must inform the hook.

I think you need to rush through a description of your main character. After the first three paragraphs. non-human is not a useful mental image. Either that, or delay telling us he's not human.

There are aspects of your locations that are not described but can still be inferred. They will need to be described. Notably, you need to reinforce that the "Exterior" areas of L2 are interior. You should give a height, width, and colour. Also, what did Cop#2 appear out of? Rinse and repeat for every interior space mentioned as well. But don't bunch into paragraphs. This is what you should be putting between those long ranges of internal thoughts and dialogue. Lifting a wrapping off a painting is not enough to dispel the void. I assume some of these rooms actually have furniture?

I have seen a number of times you tell the dialogue instead of showing, without an obvious reason. At this point, I am merely noting that I observed it. I need to get a handle on the style to have an opinion.

Well, I'll wait to comment on the style/voice and what you said about it until you're rested. Thank you for the critique, though. I've also already addressed most of the issues that were commented on in the doc.

My issue with the lack of description is that I don't know where to put it. I've gone with writing this story in extremely limited third-person- you're experiencing the world and this story directly through his eyes and thoughts. I would really love to describe everything and make you feel like you're there, but I'm afraid it will just seem forced for two big reasons. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that these reasons justify the story being in its current state, they're just hurdles that I need help working around.

The first is that two out of the three locations where Yinae goes to during this chapter are very familiar to him- life in a densely built multilevel underground district is the only life he apparently knows, and looking out that skylight is the closest thing he believes he's been to being outdoors, or aboveground. To answer your questions about the dimensions, the ceilings of each floor are at least high enough to fit two-story buildings with rooftop terraces, the floors spread out pretty far but are walled off into districts roughly two miles square in size (or an hour's walk, but he doesn't need to walk too far), and all of the buildings appear to be made out of white fiberglass-esque stuff both inside and out. I'm not saying that I don't want the reader to know these things, I just don't know how I'd fit them into the first chapter- maybe I could convey that the buildings are very close together by mentioning how narrow the alleys Yinae passes through are? -much less during the first half.

I had plans to have a fuller description of the protagonist's physical appearance during Part ii (where he's undressing for bed and we learn how extensive his tattoos are), and a fuller description of what it's like to live in the Underlands in Part iii (he goes to another country and describes it to some characters who only heard rumors of an advanced country in the far north). I do hint that he has waist-length hair during the last third of the chapter (read that part and you'll see what I mean by 'hint'), but I still don't really know where would be a good place to work in a rundown of his physical appearance, or something really basic about Yinae's species- that every last one of them has all-white-gray coloring. Especially since everyone there knows what a Sodra looks like and that they all have that coloring, and wouldn't find their appearance remarkable.

And the second problem is pacing. I'm concerned that if I stop in between paragraphs of dialogue or internal monologue to slip in a sentence of description about something that doesn't have immediate relevance to whatever's going on right now, it'll kill the flow and pace. To put it simply, I haven't been able to determine how a story that isn't about driving physical action or an adventure should be paced, or how much description is okay for a lower-key story other than what's absolutely, immediately necessary.

So, when you're rested, can you help me fix these things? Would you prefer it if the chapter started with Yinae commenting about how his coworkers and boss find him weird for noticing the sky?

And again, because I've had very polarizing criticisms on other sites of how much description is appropriate, I'd welcome some other opinions.

edited 31st May '16 4:33:56 PM by CrystalGlacia

Here are some of my thoughts on the main character's voice. It is bland and not particularly memorable.

To your thought on the voice. I recommend strongly that you cheat here. You are writing a standard book. The general advice is, the character must be observant enough to see many details, and must have an appetising voice, one that can comfortably be listened to for a long time. Because both of these are required by the medium. These are required by almost everything except avant garde storytelling. And even in avant garde, you still need a stronger character voice. One that makes itself obvious.

In regular writing, creating a strong voice is in conflict with creating an appetising voice. Progress in one tends to be steps backward in the other. But you can get both.

I noticed a lot of exposition. This is one of the things I was waiting to get a feel for the voice before commenting on. Exposition is not bad. But, all writers, especially those creating fantastic worlds, will invariably stick too much of their world building into the narrative through exposition. I think it is a good habit to train yourself to cut most of it out in editing. You want the reader to puzzle out the world. The exception is establishing McGuffins.

I know what you said. You are sticking a lot of setting details in your first chapter intentionally.

Most of the rest of what I noticed were phrasing choices and word choices that were odd. I would have noted them as I went through the narrative, but odd word and phrasing choices can be justified either by the voice or the style of writing.

The number one rule here is consistency. Choose a way in which your phrasing can be odd, do it frequently, and cut out phrasing that is odd in a different way.

I was also talking about those single quotes, which are almost always a bad idea, but can be justified by a writing style.

Also, showing and not telling some dialogue is another thing that can be justified by style.

Getting back to scene detail, I think you need to cheat, doubly so. Imagine your viewpoint character is telling the story. What's the first thing he is going to do? Describe the scene. Because that is how you tell stories.

Given your description in your post, I cannot effectively tell you how effective a scene would be if he could look out a window while going down the elevator. It also makes me wonder if the skylight in the first scene was properly described. The audience needs to see what you see. Not just what's outside the skylight. The skylight itself. The height, shape and size.

As to the character's details, I suggest that you are doing it right, more or less, but out of order. We need to know that he is not human after we know his blood is blue, not before, for example.

The chapter gets better as it went on. The action climbed. Not all action is fight scenes. Remember to advertise the action you do have at the beginning. The action scene was properly described and well paced.

The second half of your chapter needs almost no work.

Pacing is fine. I've seen bad pacing. You do not have it. Scene description is not pacing killer. Wordiness is. If you go to the extreme, and describe scenes with only essential details, your scene description can end up feeling rushed, for example.

All elements of narrative can contribute to the experience of progress. Describing scenes dynamically, for example, will automatically make people feel stuff is happening. Even though the end result is identical to describing a scene passively.

You do, on the other hand, have a bit of a conversation in an empty void problem.

I cannot speak to flow however. Depending on how you add the detail, I can see flow being disrupted.

I don't think I'd prefer the start you recommended. I do recommend you spend a lot of time considering multiple hooks.

edited 31st May '16 10:57:00 PM by war877

So you've given me a lot to think about. A lot. And I appreciate all of it. But I'd still like to know what you mean by most of it. I don't think you're wrong, I'm just not clear on some things.

Voice:

This is actually the first time I've heard anyone comment on voice. (Like, I've never heard anyone bring up voice when I get writing critique, on anything I've written, even when the writing was generally okay.) Are you saying that the voice would come out more through the way he describes and observes stuff? Is his personality not coming out in his narration enough? Or does he not have enough personality to begin with? And is this a problem throughout the whole chapter, or just certain parts of it?

Exposition:

So I'm simultaneously not describing his surroundings enough to give a feel for the area, and I'm describing the setting so much I'm not allowing the reader to fill in the blanks? What am I overdescribing? Is it just in narration, in dialogue, or both? Could you give some examples, or mark this exposition on the doc? I don't know if I'm just not reading this right, but it seems contradictory to me.

What did I say? I think all I said in my last post were reasons why I wasn't describing things, but I could be mistaken. Again, maybe I'm not reading you right, but I'm not following what you're saying about the level of detail.

Word choice:

Mark these odd phrasings and word choices anyways, or give examples- as I said above, I've never paid much attention to voice because nobody comments on it. And, you know, what one reader sees as odd word choice could be completely unremarkable to the writer because that's how the writer naturally talks. Maybe that is part of Yinae's voice, but I can't tell because I don't know what's tripping your definition of 'odd'. I already fixed the single-quotes on the doc.

And what do you mean by showing or telling dialogue? I've never heard of show vs. tell applied to dialogue before. Could you give an example from the text where I did one, but should have done the other?

Scene detail:

I'll try. I've just been reading for years that I, especially being a speculative fiction writer, need to do the opposite and focus on the plot above all else. Of course, a lot of speculative fiction writers get around this by making their protagonists newcomers.

Well, I can say right away that this isn't an option- there's no windows in the elevators because they're not stuck to the outside wall of a building, they're underground, and it works to my advantage (both in this story and others set in the Underlands for metaphorical reasons) to have the skylights on L1 be the only point of exposure to the outside world. The Underlands are completely underground, after all (which I've had a hell of a time trying to convey) and the skylights are at what we'd call ground level.

Was this not what I did? In the very first paragraph of the whole chapter, he checks his wrists for blue ligature marks, and you don't get confirmation that he's not human until he's talking with Seniya. When real-world humans get ligature marks, the marks are red because the action of ties rubbing against and constricting the skin brings blood close to the skin's surface, and the ties can also break the skin. But I understand if not enough readers would realize this, and just assume that ligature marks would be blue for a human as well because their circulation was cut off.

But are you saying that I don't need a rundown of his appearance during the first half of the chapter anymore and can wait until Part ii like I originally planned, or do I still need one?

Could you clarify what you mean by this? Which beginning, the beginning of the chapter? What action do you want me to 'advertise'? The police raid? A particular conversation? And what do you mean by 'advertise'?

That's nice to hear. Where does the second half start for you, though? When he gets home and argues with Risa? And just to be sure, are you saying that this second half is fine in terms of description? I don't feel like I described Shiahab's headquarters any more than I described L1, Seniya's studio, or the streets of L2, though. Why don't you feel the need to know how big Shiahab is (2500-ish square feet, like an average two-story family home in the US), whether there's furniture on the first floor (maybe some little decorative tables and an unseen waiting area), what the floors are like (white fiberglass like the walls), what's in the other rooms between the kitchen and the sleeping quarters (dressing rooms), or what the sleeping quarters are like (frickin' tiny for being shared by five people, and none of them really have any possessions)? I'm genuinely curious what makes the amount of description for Shiahab okay especially since Yinae would have even less reason to describe it than the streets.

Pacing:

Dynamically how? Can you give an example? Do I describe anything dynamically in the text itself?

I know. Because there's simultaneously not enough description and too much exposition? That's what I'm trying to fix.

The hook:

Well, you said that you really liked the third paragraph, so that's why I guessed it might be better to start there. Apparently not. I'm kind of here because I'm struggling with hooks so much that the only reason why anybody's reading to the good parts is because they're critiquing it and they have to. All I've heard about how to start a story is that it has to be as close to the plot as possible, and it has to generate interest.

I know the opening I have isn't stellar- I said so in my intro. What I've done is I've started at the earliest possible point in this story that could be made to work. I'm asking if there's a scene, or event, or description, or something already in the story that is interesting or could be made to generate interest as a hook. They say that you should write stories that you'd want to read, but it takes way more than a few paragraphs to get me to put down a story, and I know most readers aren't like me. What would hook a reader like you? What would get a reader like you interested?

As always more opinions are always welcome.

edited 1st Jun '16 11:52:36 AM by CrystalGlacia

Voice: Yep, that's pretty much what I mean. The character wasn't very strong in your narration. It is not so much that he doesn't have a voice, but that it is a passive voice, with few memorable characteristics. This is not a bad thing. It is something that you may want to consider while also considering other changes. And it could have an influence both on who likes your story, and how much they like it.

In particular, a passive voice without much personality is almost always palatable, but it lacks strength.

As to whether the problem is that he lacks personality, or not enough comes through the narration, I cannot tell. That would look the same to me, the reader.

I observed this problem consistently through the narration, but in the second half, the action climbed. One does not usually expect voice to come through strongly in more action oriented moments. The lack of a strong voice is apparent only in the quiet, contemplative moments.

Exposition: Yes, to both. You are expositing a lot through dialogue. Scene description does not count as exposition, and you are not doing much of that.

I cannot really give specifics I feel without intruding on your artistic vision. I feel that some scenes need to be better described. But how they should be described I can't say. Yes, people are talking about stuff they have no reason to talk about. But which lines should be removed or cleaned up, I'd have to think about. And I might get it wrong.

You said: "My issue with the lack of description is that I don't know where to put it. ... I would really love to describe everything and make you feel like you're there..."

I may have read stuff into what you said.

Word choice: I may mark those later, but I won't spot them all and will be uncertain about the ones I do catch, because I don't have a strong feel for your style.

I can show the telling quite easily. It is a rather textbook pair of examples.

Scene detail: I interpret that as saying you heard about something most people get wrong, then swung too far the opposite way. It happens.

When I was referring to a window, I meant a window out of the elevator into the floor area. That would meet just about all of the scene description needs for entering the new area all by itself. He simply would need to look out the window and watch as the elevator descends down into the forest of buildings in the massive four story space. You could do that in two sentences. An overly descriptive speculative fiction writer would do it in two paragraphs.

As to his appearance, we don't really need to know. A rundown is usually excessive. You should still do something. But the number of details that are communicated in the first chapter are sufficient: blue blooded, pasty faced, long hair, short, handsome. The ligature marks really are more confusing than helpful here. Again, I would just omit calling the artist a human when she is first introduced.

Yes, I meant the beginning of the chapter. The very beginning. Something to think about while thinking about the first two paragraphs.

The scene when he gets home through to the knock on the door is sort of the transition. I would say about halfway through, when things start moving faster, and the points of the story where it is appropriate to describe the setting have passed, you have no real mistakes. It is the slower moments, those where his lacking a voice show, and those where lack of scene description is also apparent, which might need work.

And yes. I want to see some furniture in Shiabab's studio. A vase, another painting, a cabinet, a countertop. If you don't mention it, it doesn't exist. But you don't need to describe it though.

I don't need to know the size of an interior office space/dwelling because it is normal. This is a type of detail that will be automatically inferred by your entire audience. You only need to mention it if it is unusual to us.

I think there are two rules here that can be useful. Line of sight description: only describe what your viewpoint character can plainly see in front of him. Hinting: Describe enough so that people can know the type of area. What type of foyer is it? Is it filled with antiques? Barren? Modern? Postmodern? What type of kitchen? Galley? Restaurant? Kitchen/dining room? Completely alien? If people get an idea, they will fill in the blanks automatically. If they don't, they will end up staring at a white page.

Pacing: Describing stuff dynamically is hard to describe. There are many ways to add motion to your descriptions. Literal motion like describing a scene while descending in an elevator, for example. But there are lots and lots of other ways.

I don't automatically look for details like how dynamically something is described. But I do remember you several times describing something as a person was doing something. Lifting a cover, rearranging a pile, moving a teapot? I don't remember too well.

The hook: It does not need a thing in common with the plot. Where did you hear that? The hook is advertising. If it doesn't match the the story, then people might feel cheated.

You might want to advertise your plot. Is it a mystery? Then hint to the coolest mystery in your story. Is it an adventure? Lead with some really awesome dynamic description. Is it a drama? Introduce your character's mind. Really show it off.

You might want to advertise your style instead. Or the political or philosophical content of the work, if that is what it is about.

If you want to move your hook, and I'm not sure you need to, I would move it to the skylight. However, describing the skylight is already tricky, and overlaying the hook on it will make it extremely hard to write well.

edited 1st Jun '16 11:17:41 PM by war877