The Gun Thread

I would like to see federal mandates saying to get a permit you have to pass all the safety and "Are you Batshit?" testing with a passing score and that permit functions like your drivers' license in the sense it is good anywhere so you can travel with weapons, but you still have to adhere to state laws within reason, much like a driver's license.

Example, if one state has a ban on a certain exhaust, you can drive through but if you're staying for an extended period of time, you need to adapt your car to their standards.

Much like if a certain gun is banned in a certain area, you can drive through, but you need to either ditch the gun or move on the border.

I just avoid states that I can't take my collection to.

I wonder how British armed forces ever got stuck with L85.

That shit is so bad. Might have better chance of survival if they just attacked Taliban and stole their AK. XP

Because Mrs Thatcher and her desire to keep the indigenous arms industry ticking over.

And the HK version has nowhere near the same number of problems as the original.

edited 18th Sep '15 2:28:42 PM by Deadbeatloser22

Where did I hear that...

...oh yeah, Japan and their godawful guns.

More like 'fatten up Royal Ordnance for privatization'.

Isn't the Type-89 just an AR-18 with cherry blossoms stamped on it?

I'm pretty sure it is, yeah.

Speaking of the AR-18 I wonder how would be things if the US adopted the AR-18 or the Stoner-63 instead of the M-16.

I keep hearing the L85 is a bitch to reload while prone.

edited 18th Sep '15 5:17:23 PM by AngelusNox

The HK L85 rework apparently works now but the original design aesthetics are still there so it is still awkward and clunky rifle.

The Stoner was left off because while innovative and functional it was also complex, expensive, and required more maintenance per weapon, but for what it did it was actually almost a perfect special forces type weapon.

The AR-18 would have been a bit easier to maintain and the folding stock is nice but sliding adjustable stocks are better. It would have done pretty well in it's own right. Unfortunately it has a bad reputation because of its use by the Provo IRA.

edited 18th Sep '15 5:20:02 PM by TuefelHundenIV

I can't really how you're gonna fix those without completely rebuilding the rifle from the ground up.

At that point why not just get a whole new design entirely?

From what little I could find initially they reworked the actions and/or bolts and replaced some bits with newer made stuff. However because it is not a total rework they are still apparently rather clunky to put it politely.

Random rambling.

Learning about about gun history (read:skimming through this thread and Wikipedia pages) made me grow a lot of appreciation for things that are Simple, yet Awesome in general. Reliable and sturdy things rule.

I'm reminded of that quote from Lord of War, how AK-47 is the true weapon of mass destruction. I'm pretty sure there is no reliable way to count how many people have died from AK-47 rounds (but no doubt more than 330,000) and it doesn't have the sheer deterring factor of nuke missiles, but it is an amusing thing to think about.

I should watch that movie. It sounds like my kind of movie.

Damn fine movie. I'd say it's Nic Cage's best.

Kinda scary too when you realize it's all true.

The best kind of movie.

It is pretty excellent.

On a vaguely related note, I'm getting real sick of people jumping on piston A Rs' collective dick.

The L85's overall ergos were poorly considered and cannot be altered without essentially designing and producing an entire new rifle. (Cannot be fired lefty, cannot be fired around the wrong side of cover.)

In addition, RSAF Enfield was already on the way out of business, and they damn well knew it - and it reflected in the construction quality. Most of the problems arose from extremely poorly made parts. Magazine catches broke, firing pins would shatter at a drop of a hat, stock and furniture would crack if you breathed on it too hard, and on top of the bad ergos, you had a terrible rifle.

Then when Enfield was history and the Mo D was stuck with a shit rifle, they called the Germans who replaced most of the bad parts with stuff that didn't break as easy, which makes the rifle at least mechanically functional - I mean, it IS a short-stroke gas piston rifle based vaguely on the AR-18 (like literally almost every other fucking service rifle in Europe) but the bad ergos will remain bad.

L3wt for the win. There you have it folks a lot of why on earth did you do this parts replaced with this should not explode when looked at.

@Deadbeat

- Indeed. Howa initially made a few AR-18s as prototype models to help the Japanese Defense Agency decide on the then future Type 89.

So while the mechanical features of the L85 are nothing to sneeze at any longer - it is perfectly competent and up to par with many of the major service rifles of the world - the problems are as such: it will either break your jaw or spit brass in your face when fired from the wrong shoulder, and it's awkward to reload in the proper manner.

By "proper manner" I mean the taught practice of never ever moving your right hand from the pistol grip, and using your left hand for any operation (replacing magazine, racking charging handle, etc). This is done in order to retain complete control of the weapon at all times and ensuring it is pointed in the direction you want it to be, and fire it with one round chambered and no magazine if absolutely necessary.

In order to accomplish this on the L85, you must sort of sneak your hand either over or under the rifle to reach the charging handle, which is horribly awkward.

edited 22nd Sep '15 12:26:58 PM by l3wt

Well I would say the mechanical bits work not sure about on par. As before it was a functional nightmare. The comment about the weird ergonomics sounds spot on for everything we have heard or been told about the weapon.

If I had any statistics to cite regarding the A2s reliability, I would plop them in here. Regular internet grapevine stuff says it works just as well as any other AR-18 based system you could care to mention now that the parts are up to spec, but the multiple of anecdote is not data, and you could very well be right that the construction is still fundamentally flawed - but that's not for me to say.

I've always heard the A2 is ridiculously accurate and quite effective. If the ergonomics weren't so shit.

Also l3wt, avatar feels so familiar.

edited 22nd Sep '15 3:03:53 PM by LeGarcon

At risk of going off-topic... AAAH NUUUUUUU CHEEKI BREEEKI IV DAMKE

Whatever happened to the Tavor? Another Bullpup rifle that launched with much fanfare and then just kind of... fell off.