Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
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I would caution against phrasing it as 'badass in spite of/because of their identity' based on the fact that badass standalone we decided wasn't a trope.
a definition should push more towards 'overcomes the negative stereotypes that others have about them inuniverse' or 'fully embraces all the stereotypes and uses them to be more effective at their role.' Something that speaks to story telling conventions (actual tropes) as specifically as possible.
The Unknown Unknown
Good point.
I've been brainstorming on ideas for a name change, but even then I'm a little iffy on some...
- Warrior Within: Thought it sounded cool, but was too vague.
- Warrior Who Swings A Different Way: Too wordy.
- Camp Warrior: Goes with the whole camp naming and "warrior" is a pretty nice name for a badass fighter.
I like "Warrior Who Swings a Different Way", at least in idea because it has a double meaning: swinging a weapon and a figure of speech meaning sexual orientation. How about "Warrior Who Does Not Swing Straight?" This then means that they are "not straight" which can be homosexual or bisexual and also that they use this to their advantage in a way that strikes "warriors who swing straight" as unconventional.
The Unknown Unknown
I don't know about "Warrior Who Does Not Swing Straight". It has a third meaning, in that, it implies incompetency, as in "he can't drive straight" or "she can't see straight." But others may like the punny nature of the name.
Wonder what everybody else thinks.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Hi
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
The Unknown Unknown
"Spectrum Warrior" sounds too vague like "Warrior Within" even though I understand the rationale behind it.
Yeah 'Warrior Who Does Not Swing Straight' doesn't work because it implies things like Kono Suba's Darkness, a warrior literally who couldn't hit the broadside of a castle with her sword.
Camp Warrior sounds similar to Agent Peacock to me.
Again: "Badass Queer" would work best because Queer encompasses Gay/Bi and a lot of other "non-heterosexual" things. But the problem is, again, Queer is still used as a slur quite often, despite the LGBT crowd reclaiming it more than they did.
The Unknown Unknown
Which is why we're discussing more wholesome options than Badass Queer.
Planeswalker
If it didn't mess up the order I'd suggest LGTBadass. It doesn't really flow nicely off the tongue though.
Oissu!
I think Warrior Who Does Not Swing Straight still sounds like the best compromise, double or triple meaning aside.
edited 8th Jul '16 1:14:26 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
The Unknown Unknown
All right.
Should we call for a crowner, have the mods rename and reword Badass Gay, or whatever?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
None of the names solve the problem.
They all imply "is competent" and "is LGBT." Badass + trait (what we don't want anymore)
Badass Despite Being LGBT or LGBT Overcomer or Rising Above The Stereotype get to the point (despite not being particularly good names)
In a context where it is called attention to that the person shouldn't be badass because of trait, they prove themselves to be (badass despite trait) or in a context when everyone else is doing something the traditional way this person uses their trait to do it better (badass because trait)
edited 8th Jul '16 3:54:37 PM by acrobox
The Unknown Unknown
I had no idea the problem was that deep. I thought we just need minor tweaks to the name and maybe the meaning.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Am I a weirdo?
Warrior For The Other Team maybe?
Bigotry will NEVER be welcome on TV Tropes.
That just sounds like they are fighting on the opposing team in a contest or war.
The Unknown Unknown
Been brainstorming names. How are these two?
- A Different Kind of Badass: Vague, and it'll definitely require some elaboration in the page proper, but it wouldn't be the first trope to do so.
- Ze Who Fights: "Ze" is a gender neutral pronoun the LGBT community (particularly transgenders) use. Of course that ignores the bi and gay part...
Of course, in my opinion, trying to pick such a restrictive name is like grasping for straws. I mean, there are some tropes that aren't immediately obvious in meaning (i.e. Black Best Friend isn't literally a black best friend, it talks about a black Satellite or Flat Character).
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
LGBT Makes You Strong. I am only half kidding with this. Being a snowclone already disqualifies it. My point is something along the lines of being tempered by adversity due to one's sexuality.
Another concept involves the "gay pride" community. Pride can refer to both one's identity and combat ability or anything else really.
edited 19th Jul '16 2:21:19 PM by ChaoticNovelist
Proud Gay as a play on gay pride.
or A Proud Gay
The Unknown Unknown
Those are pretty catchy.
All right, I have to ask something. Is the whole "badass+trait" problem name only, actual definition/application, or both?
edited 19th Jul '16 5:20:38 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
both.
for instance a character like Korra might not be a Badass Gay because being Gay or Bi doesn't play into how others treat her and how she responds to them at all. it doesn't affect how she does her job, or how people expect her to do her job.
she's just good at her job (badass) and happens to be bisexual (trait). This isn't really noteworthy from a storytelling perspective. It's noteworthy for fans who like her as a nonstereotypical depiction of a LGBT character, but not a trope in the actual show.
You could just as easily say she's good at her job (badass) and owns a pet dog (trait). That's still not meaningful or directly related to doing her job or how she does it in universe. You wouldn't just throw out Badass Dog Owner. You can however throw out The Beastmaster as a trope, thats someone with a strong bond with animals and is known to use them in battle or for assistance and might be directly related to the action of the show. just owning a dog and being cool isn't anything, it's like so what?
edited 19th Jul '16 3:14:54 PM by acrobox
The Unknown Unknown
Okay, thanks, that cleared up so much for me.
I though I still hold the notion "Warrior Who Does Not Swing Straight" (or even "Warrior Who Swings Differently" for those with reservations) is the best compromise for a change of "Badass Gay". It's not as blatant, it's simple, and it can be tweaked to our liking.
edited 19th Jul '16 5:21:12 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
"Warrior Who Swings Differently" would indeed avoid the meaning of "bad accuracy".
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Definitely a rename is in order. One that encompasses gay, bi, and lesbian characters. As well as a description that clearly states a character applies if and only if she/he/it qualifies because she/he/it is badass in spite of their sexual orientation.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.