Unless it's a widespread problem, just saying the spoiler is from a later installment should be all we need to do. Although on trope pages spoilers tend to get thrown around without much context as to when they're spoilers for, which really bugs me.
Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
Dragon Writer
Spoiling key details about a later installment are still spoilers.
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Cutmaster-san
Spoilers from other works (whether later in the series or completely unrelated) should always be in spoiler text and immediately preceded by something indicating the works being spoiled.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Jupiterian Local
I'm generally of the opinion that information on later works in a series doesn't need to be on the earlier work's page at all. If the passage in question isn't relevant to Goblet of Fire then it shouldn't be on Goblet of Fire's page, so just get rid of it.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Cutmaster-san
Most of the time such spoilers are indeed unnecessary, yes.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Here, let me fix that.
It's a bad idea to say that nothing should be in tags because "people shouldn't read the page unless they want spoiled". Some people (myself included) glance through the list of tropes to see if a work will be something to check out.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Reviews are better for that than trope lists. Tropes Are Not Bad, and Tropes Are Not Good, so which tropes are involved in a work is not a reliable guide in whether or not it is worth watching, reading, or playing.
That said, I can't think of any good reason why comparing to a later installment in an earlier installment's page is necessary either. I'd say, if one is to compare and contrast how different installments use the same trope, such comparisons should be on the main page of a series, rather than the subpage for a specific installment.
EDITED IN: Should we make a rule for this, then?
edited 28th Dec '11 6:51:33 AM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Personally I think spoiler tags should be for things that have not yet been released. if it has been released to the general public then there is no need for spoiler tags.
Spoilers are massively over-used to the point of uselessness right now. You see something spoilered out and wonder, is it a real spoiler, something a fan would like to be a spoiler, something that is only a spoiler with the benefit of hindsight, just something that happened, a joke that some editor put in because they thought using the spoiler code would be funny...the list is endless. Actually, pretty much the only thing you can guarantee it isn't is a real spoiler. It's at the point where even with spoilers off it is so noticeable how overused they are because the little dots that appear in "spoilers off mode" are so prevalent.
I long for the day the spoiler code goes the same way as the strikethrough code, until then, can we update our spoiler policy so the tags are so overused. Please Eddie?
Dragon Writer
The definition of a spoiler is revealing key details to the audience through any means other than the actual source material. The trouble is that the publication of a work doesn't guarantee that it's the means by which any given viewer will learn said details. If they learn it by any other means than actually watching it, it's a spoiler.
And like it or not, it does have an effect on how they enjoy the work. For example, Aeris's death had no emotional impact on me whatsoever. Why? Because I had heard about it long before playing the actual game. I knew what to expect. It was spoiled.
edited 28th Dec '11 10:56:00 PM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Spoiler tags are a crucial tool. Misuse is a reason to work towards fixing them rather than scrapping them.
I say this as someone who supports scrapping Accidental Nightmare Fuel, and used to support scrapping Complete Monster, because those tropes aren't as necessary as having spoiler tags.
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Please don't turn TV Tropes into perma-spoilers-off, I'd have to stop reading and editing then. Seriously. It's one thing to stay away from works pages or not edit them if I want to read them later. It's another to go on a trope page and see a giant, unmarked spoiler going into detail about Valen in Babylon 5. Having that plot twist spoiled would suck for anyone who actually wanted to watch the series.
I've had things spoiled for me before reading books (like Heralds Of Valdemar, on this very wiki) or watching shows, and it does detract significantly from my enjoyment. It just isn't polite to thrown them around willy-nilly with no warning. If I want all spoilers off, I'll turn them off on my profile.
Plot twists, character deaths, twist endings, secrets and reveals shouldn't be unmarked outside of places like Death Trope Pages, unless it's a very old work.
edited 28th Dec '11 8:33:44 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
That One Guy
Cutmaster-san
@Eddie: I can see potential use for spoilers from other works when dealing with adaptation/continuity tropes.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
What do you mean?
Cutmaster-san
Spared by the Adaptation, for example, spoils that a character died in a different version of the story. Cutting out the identity of the person who was spared will often turn the example into a "this trope happened".
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Gotta trope, dood!
I disagree. The problem lies with how different people enjoy works. Some of us don't mind, or even enjoy being "spoiled" on works beforehand. Case in point, I checked the Babylon5 page as soon as I read your post to see what the plot twist was. Knowing ahead of time what it is, should I choose to watch the show, I can focus on all the foreshadowing leading up to the reveal and enjoy the work more because of it.
We need to curb the use of spoilers on the wiki in general. There's far too much in tags that need not be. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not for perma-spoilers off mode since, yeah, some people do seem to really dislike them (although IIRC, the majority of users keeps their spoilers unmarked), just reducing the amount of stuff that gets tagged.
Something like Bob being revealed as the Chosen One in the fifth episode of the first season of a three season show? Probably doesn't need to be tagged. By contrast, if in the third season, it's revealed that he actually isn't does need to be tagged. Basically, what I'm saying is, if it's something that's sort of a spoiler at the time, but keeps coming up after it's shown to the point where talking about the show becomes difficult without mentioning it, probably shouldn't be tagged.
EDIT: Also, why doesn't Babylon V redirect to Babylon5?
edited 28th Dec '11 8:30:37 PM by Wulf
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
I'm an Irene!
The problem is, people do mind. Just because one doesn't, doesn't mean we should say "screw them".
Right now, we don't want to spoil people. Generally, many people do care, and it's overall better to go with the route that has less chance of annoying people. That's why spoilers exist, so people don't learn of something they don't want to learn. If you don't care about them, you can turn off spoilers in your forum profile.
Not everything has to be spoiled, but if something should be spoiled, we shouldn't remove for those few people that don't mind.
Quest 64 thread
Gotta trope, dood!
Not sure if you're responding to me, but just in case, I'll quote myself.
Right now, there's a lot of stuff tagged that aren't really spoilers. Should "Bob sells his soul at the end of episode three." be tagged, when the first two episodes are him trying to find the devil and the rest of the series is him regretting his decision or using whatever demonic powers he got for it? In situations like that, it really doesn't make sense, but that's what a lot of things listed in tags seem to be.
edited 28th Dec '11 8:45:57 PM by Wulf
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
I'm an Irene!
Yeah, that should be tagged. That's a major event for characterization.
Important and key events can be spoilered. Why wouldn't they be in the first place? Because it's obvious. That's still not obvious to every single person. The thing is, nobody would know when it happened, and that's the part that needs to be spoilered the most.
Quest 64 thread
There's a bias to that statement though. The majority of people who read the wiki actually read it with spoilers on because that's the default for people who don't make an account. There is a small subsection of that group of people who just read the wiki and don't edit who just make an account to turn spoilers off.
These are not the majority of wiki readers but they greatly skew the number of editors with spoilers off because there are more of them than active editors. The thing is, there's far more people who like having spoilers on but don't edit that will never make accounts.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Gotta trope, dood!
It's a major event for characterization... that happens early in the series and is a key element for the rest of the story. It'd be like tagging "In chapter 3 of Harry Potter And The Sorcerers Stone, it's revealed that Harry is a wizard." It's a major event, but it's something that's taken for granted since it's basically the framing device for the series.
EDIT: Good point.
edited 28th Dec '11 8:59:26 PM by Wulf
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
I'm an Irene!
I'd use a better example, please. It's really, really, clear, that Harry is going to be a Wizard, since that's why he goes to School. It's to become one. There's tons of books, so there's an extremely good chance he's become one. This one is a given. If he never will become one, why would there be more than one book? It's a key point to the story, but on the other hand, him becoming a wizard is really expected, and isn't even that spoiler-worthy. Why? Everybody expects it. Not everybody actually expects one to take a deal with the devil. Some may, mind you, but it really depends the description of the story. If it's said in the description, we should mark when it happens only. If it's not, spoiler the whole thing.
The problem is with the other event, is that it's a very key part of the story. It's also how the rest of it goes. If you know that happens, and he's trying to get his soul back, then you know the entire basic review of the story, if you will on those terms. Unless it's already said in the basic description, it should be spoilered for key events like that. We can't make special exceptions because it's obvious to some.
Quest 64 thread
Gotta trope, dood!
It's not a matter of "is it obvious or not?" It's a matter of WHO WHAT WHEN
- WHO does it happen to? Is it a main character?
- WHAT happens? Is it a key element to the story, like a death, or Face–Heel Turn?
- WHEN does it happen? Is it after the first few episodes or chapters? The first book or movie in a series* ?
As a general rule of thumb, I don't see much point in tagging stuff that doesn't fall into at least two of those. That is, a side character dies two thirds of the way through the series? Tag it. A side character dies in the first episode? No point.
That said, I don't really care whether something's tagged, so long as the example still has meaning. That is:
- Deal with the Devil- In episode 3, Bob sells his soul to Asmodeus, gaining demonic powers. He immediately regrets his decision.
...is totally pointless.
- Deal with the Devil- In episode 3 Bob sells his soul to Asmodeus, gaining demonic powers. He immediately regrets his decision.
...works a lot better * . Unfortunately, the former is far more common.
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
So I was recently reading our page for Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire, having just watched the movie and hoping the TV Tropes article on the installment could sort out some of my confusion about it, and I found an entry that spoiled something from a later installment, Order of the Phoenix. (See the edit history.)
Now, this was not at all marked as a spoiler when I found it, but even now that I marked it as such, someone might expect it to be a spoiler from within Goblet Of Fire, rather than to be about a later installment.
Obviously, given this uncertainty, for ANY series for which separate installments have separate trope lists OR pages, we need to either reserve spoiler tags for stuff spoiling plot points from LATER installments, or we need to mark different levels of spoilers so as to avoid this kind of confusion. The latter would be a bit complicated, though, since whatever we choose; colour coding, text size, or whatever... people will have one more thing to remember in order to know what kind of spoiler to expect.
Personally, I prefer just reserving spoiler tags for things spoiling later installments. It makes much more sense not to read a trope list for an installment until after watching or reading the installment in question anyway, and I would rather someone who does that see a spoiler for that installment than someone see a spoiler for a later installment when having no reason to expect it.
edited 27th Dec '11 6:35:10 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart