Wick check shows it's a mess.: Arson Murder And Jaywalking

I don't see what the problem with the potholing is. This wiki itself is an example of a work, and like all works it uses tropes. Sometimes one of the tropes we use is Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking. When that happens, why shouldn't we do a Lampshade Hanging by including a Pot Hole to the trope we just used?

A wiki is not a work. It's just a wiki. And although we do have Wiki Tropes, last I checked, Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking isn't one of them.

Personally, I'm averse to renaming this only because it's one of our biggest, most widely recognized articles. But potholing self-created trope examples is completely unjustified and should be stopped.

If anything, editors going out of their way just to make their own "examples" of tropes (at least, anywhere outside of a trope's own description when explaining how the given trope being covered is supposed to function) is just Word Cruft that could always be avoided and only serves as a distraction for everybody else when it isn't avoided.

edited 25th Dec '11 11:10:37 PM by SeanMurrayI

The Wiki is a work. But if the example was created entirely by a troper, than it is an example of a trope occurring in TV Tropes itself, not some other work.

Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking isn't exclusively a wiki trope, but it is a trope wikis can use. And you seem to be assuming that, if an example makes use of Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking independently of the referenced work, that it was done just 'cause the troper wanted to Pot Hole that trope. More likely, they wrote the example the way they thought sounded neatest, saw they were using a trope, and so used a Pot Hole to lampshade it. I don't see anything wrong with that; I'd say it counts as "breezy language", which the Home Page encourages.

But would you list this kind of occurrence on the trope page among the other examples of the trope appearing within works? No, you wouldn't.

If a troper wants to create trope examples, he could put tropes in his own original story, then make a work page for it on the wiki and properly reference the trope. Like I said, making up your own examples on the wiki itself, anywhere other than in a trope's own description to describe how the given trope is supposed to function, is wrong.

Editors are not supposed to be using tropes (apart from in their own original works, which have nothing to do with editing the wiki); they're supposed to be cataloging their appearances in (other) works and explain such occurrences. That's it. It's not supposed to become slang or some kind of in-joke amongst ourselves that we try and see how many times we can reference in our own articles.

And that's still unjustified. A page editor shouldn't be writing an example (for what I assume you mean an example for a trope different from Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking) the way he/she happens think sounds "neatest" and try and fit as many other tropes as possible into that example; an editor should just stick to explaining whatever example he/she is supposed to be explaining. Deliberately trying to fit other tropes into unrelated examples just makes Word Cruft. That wouldn't even qualify as "breezy language" on it's own merits; if anything, this sort of activity is completely contradictory to "breezy language".

edited 26th Dec '11 10:13:08 AM by SeanMurrayI

Breezy language includes jokes.

Yes, but not trying to squeeze in as many possible trope links in one sentence. That usually leads to sinkholes.

I think Sean is referring to things like potholing understatement when the editor thinks they have said something dryly clever. Tacky, at best. Annoying, most of the time.

Or someone drawing attention to the pun they've made by potholing A Worldwide Punomenon. Puh-lease. It is like some drunk elbowing you in the ribs when he thinks he's got off a good punchline. Ultra annoying.

So, if that is what is being meant by "Troper Pothole," I agree that that is the sort of thing that should be cleaned up. However, it is not the kind of misuse that condemns the name of the trope, just the good taste of those editors.

It is accurate, but annoying.

I agree this needs lots of varied kinds of fixes.

But I still say this could use a Trope Transplant, since this trope is about lists in general, not just lists of crimes, and the potholes are mostly the latter. But more importantly, legitimate examples of specific kinds of these lists could be split off into Sub Tropes if they are common enough (perhaps Bread, Eggs, Milk, Squick is a sub trope instead of an inversion), including what the current name implies.

Yet I also agree that not just any new name would stop the misuse. It has to be a name that help indicates this is In-Universe, something like Bobs List End With An Oddball. I know that's not self demonstrating, but it does indicate that it's a character doing this, not a troper.

edited 26th Dec '11 11:12:37 AM by DragonQuestZ

It does not need a rename. The bad behavior needs to be fixed. Renames are not the answer to everything.

The reason that most of the examples are about lists of crimes isn't because of misuse. It's because it almost never shows up in works otherwise. There aren't many other reasons for something to be listed Serious, Serious, inconsequential. The earliest uses in media were for crimes and the trope at large hasn't strayed from that much in the time it's been in use. There's nothing we can do to change how it's used in media. Just document it.

I agree bad behavior needs to be fixed, and that should take priority, but it would still be good to also have a name that indicates the trope better than a name that also looks like it could be either a form of List of Transgressions or a list about anything that ends with an odd item.

Plus further bad behavior can also be prevented with a name that again, indicates this is In-Universe instead of something that could be interpreted as this trope, when it isn't (some of the troper potholes seem to be doing that).

I'm pretty certain the only pages that are needed to convey the editors intention is specifically for YKTTW or the forums such as People Sit On Chairs. Anything that is being used by an editor on the wiki thinking they are being witty is simple misuse, not the fault of the trope itself. If anything people seem to understand Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking fine, it's just being twisted to fit the editors writing.

As already suggested, we did a massive special effort on Understatement to stop that kind of use and so far I haven't seen it pop up since. We even concluded that trying to rename/rewrite the trope to "let people have their fun" was a bad idea, because Understatement is a legitimate trope and giving people tropes to use that way sends the wrong message.

edited 26th Dec '11 3:59:53 PM by KJMackley

Okay, so we fix the bad examples and wicks, and if there is still misuse later, we then consider a new name?

BTW, what about its snowclone, Arson Murder And Life Saving? That is about a list of heinous things offset by something completely beneficial, which may tie in to AMJ getting thought of as lists of heinous things with the odd caboose.

Isn't that completely different? It seems like Bad-Bad-Good, not Strong-Strong-Weak (or opposite Weak-Weak-Strong).

That name would definitely be a case of a snowclone based on a slight misconception of the trope name which inspired it. It's clearly based on the assumption that Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking is exclusive to lists of transgressions. Where the original is intended to represent lists following a "serious, serious, trivial" pattern, Arson Murder And Life Saving goes "heinous, heinous, praiseworthy".

Not too big a deal, in my opinion (I kinda like the name Arson Murder And Life Saving), but yeah.

edited 26th Dec '11 7:14:37 PM by SeanMurrayI

Do we have enough examples to make this into a subtrope of List Well List Strong End Weak? We wouldn't have to worry about misconceptions then.

@Dragonquest- That's basically part of where the Understatement discussion went, if in the long run the name was still being misused it might be redlinked and the trope renamed to Understatement For Emphasis (the exact details depended on if that action was needed).

I think the supertrope would be List Item Subversion, since they are all about making a list of things and one of them doesn't really belong with the rest of them.

Supertrope is The Last Of These Is Not Like The Others.

I really don't like that name, it's too awkward to type or read.

Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking is a great name. Instead of split, why not just expand slightly? I added the sentence "It is frequently used in a list of crimes." to the article. The "misuse" is fine. AM&J is crimes a lot.

edited 27th Dec '11 3:15:07 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Agree with Rodney.

I pulled that, and the overly-long lecture it was in.

Listen, I'm sorry, but nothing needs to be done with this trope or it's name. It is perfectly fine just like it is.