If there were fewer gender stereotypes, would transsexuals still exist?

The same here. I acknowledge that the world treats me as female, and the way this treatment influences me is... well, let's just say that is is getting severe enough to become Single-Issue Wonk I don't really appreciate having. But without social norms attached, I perceive myself as female in the same way as I perceive myself dark-eyed. Which is to say, a biological fact too plain and obvious to deny and too insignificant to bother doing so.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Octo: "To be honest, no, my identity wouldn't change. Though the second scenario is kinda silly - if I somehow were to lose my penis, then this would be an injury. Even in that case I "normally" should still have it, after all. The first scenario, now, chromosome - well then, properly speaking I should then call myself intersex. But a) there's the weight of more than twenty years behind the male identity - "losing" anything taken granted for twenty years would be difficult to get used to and b) it's not exactly like that intersex would even be widely recognized as an own category."

I did ask you about bathrooms and guys' night out, please answer those questions as well!

What if you found out about your XXY chromosomes when you were 15? How about 10 or 5? How many years living as a man will override the biological reality? And how about when you're 40 and you have lived as a man first half of your life and the other half knowing the truth about your chromosomes? Would you identify differently then?

If your dick was cut off when you were too young to remember it, would that make you identify differently compared to the scenario where it happened yesterday?

Hah. What is that? The inquisition? I think I've made my point perfectly clear. You're really not doing your side of the argument any favours.

But fine, whatever: I'd have no problem at all using a different bathroom. As for "guy get-togethers", well, if gender truly becomes irrelevant, then those things wouldn't exist, either.

And as I've said, I don't think I really "identify" at all. I'm just stating plain biological facts, as Beholderess formulated it. Now, if those facts were to turn out to be not quite as plain in fact - now I can't be sure, of course, but I really don't think much of my self-image would change. After all, if I were to turn out as XXY, then in that case I'd have been so all my life already. Nothing would actually have changed.

I'd probably still call myself "male" to others, if only to avoid the hassle of describing chromosomal intersexuality, and list my sex as male in formulars since intersex usually isn't a choice - but I would be aware it's not strictly spoken the truth.

And really, chromosomal intersex people are what, 0.1% of the population? It's ridiculous that you want to base a general argument on that.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

No, you haven't made your point clear at all. You speak of destruction of gender, but yet there would still be sex roles. I can't think of anything else than peeing and making children that would be about sex and not gender. To cut the chase, what do you mean by "sex roles"?

I'm making an argument that: "XX and vagina = female/woman, XY and penis = male/man and that's all there is to it" is too simple model even from biological point of view. What does the intersexuality's rarity have to do anything with it? We're talking about trans folk, who are another rarity, which show's that the rule is not absolute.

What about those who are XY and have a vagina?

Would you count them as male or female?

Dutch Lesbian

Anyway, one reason I doubt that gender stereotypes are behind most of the decisions to change sex is that, in the current social climate, sex change tends to bring about quite a lot of social stigma off it's own. Unfortunately. So using it to get away from gender stereotypes seems counterproductive.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

I think there would. There would still be those confused about their gender, there will be those who find the idea of being the opposite gender appealing, if I can say this without being offensive there will be those who find those who change their gender appealing. Getting rid of gender stereotypes won't change that.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

No, I think you're right, tsstevens. There's also that portion of the population in the equation.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

There will always be "gender" I think, because it's so much a part of an individual's identity.

Not everyone sees their gender as important to who they are (but they're probably still surrounded by people who see them as either male or female and treat them accordingly).

Gender roles are in a constant state of change, especially in the modern era. Eliminating the idea of gender... simply isn't going to work.

Maybe not, but dividing the whole human race into two categories seems pretty crude - like that culture I read about somewhere where they distinguish between "blue" (which includes every shade of blue and green) and "red" (all red, yellow and orange shades). I'd like my society to recognise that there are more nuances.

In order to be approved for hormone therapy and other aspects of transition a person has to be backed by a therapist. It's usually someone who has experience with these cases and will help with the weirdness of it all. They take every step to make sure it's not about "fitting in" stereotypically and that it's more of an innate thing. There are cases of things going horribly wrong, but those are anomalies rather than the norm.

Again, the whole thing is a lot more visceral than logical. It's similar to sexual preferences. You can try to rationalize things with statements similar to "well, I like the curves on a woman" or whatever, but ultimately you're just explaining why something is already that way and not how it came about.

Side note: David Reimer's case would have become famous either way since he was the first test of a highly contested and trumpeted viewpoint at the time. The doctor's camp would have used him as an endorsement that they were right had he adjusted positively to life as a girl.

Well it makes me wonder if transsexualism would just fall the way of body dysmorphia rather than how it's treated now. They're treated very differently. If someone does not think they should be shaped some way, or does not think they should have some limb, or something, they're discouraged from changing themselves — no doctor's going to cut off a limb no matter how strongly you believe it doesn't belong on your body.

I thought that Reimer was just the first one to speak up about it. Intersex and gender reassignment surgery in infancy had been going on since the 50s for various reasons (botched circumcision, micropenis, ambiguious genetalia, partial or complete removal of a pronounced clitoris, etc.), and it was socially unacceptable to mention such things in "polite company".

After Reimer spoke up about it, many other individuals who had similar surgical procedures done came forward to denounce it as well, and that's why it's not standard procedure any more.

edited 25th Dec '11 10:25:04 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

It depends what you mean by "shaped that way". For example plastic surgery is easier to get than any sex change treatment.

Well, the responsible doctor did claim that he was right and that Reimer had adjusted positively to life as a girl...

We had a study linked here roughly a year ago about sex changes at birth and consequences, longitudinal study for around 20 cases. It missed statistical significance by a small margine (meaning the chance of this result being pure concidence was slightly above 5%). I also heard, though without a precise enough memory of the quality of the study, that there are brain wave differences measurable between the different sexes in general, and that transgendered people in general share the brain behaviour of their chosen identity. I think the evidence for transsexuals existing even if no gender stereotypes would exist is fairly strong.

Pour y voir clair, il suffit souvent de changer la direction de son regard www.xkcd.com/386/