Argentine Politics Thread

Well they did left, but so did the british. And then came Argentina.

It was seattle, sure, but that happen because the Argentinians were kicked out in the 1830.

And it doesnt matter how you look at it, Argentina had by miles a better claim to the islands than Britain, Not only were the Spaniards the ones who owned the islands legally, but they gave the administration of the islands to the Buenos Aires Colonial Administration. When Buenos Aires becamse indepdent, it sent troops to the islands.

ultimately britain took it by force when it did not have a valid claim to it (which is the definition of stealing by the way);.

edited 14th Apr '12 7:20:53 PM by Baff

Argentina creating a concentration camp on them is not a legitimate claim to sovereignty over the islands.

Actually I'd say "The islanders wanted Britain to have the islands" trumps any and all other claims to them.

edited 14th Apr '12 7:17:53 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

Ummm... yes it is. As a fun fact... did you Know there is a very big chunk of land in South America that is owned by a foreing country, almost exclusively because it was destined by said country to be used as a penal colony? [1]

Besides, that is not the only mean by which they claim sovereignity.

edited 14th Apr '12 7:23:11 PM by Baff

It's the closest they get to a legitimate claim, anything else by rights is either a flat out lie or could still be used as an argument for giving Argentina itself back to Spain.

Ummm.. you are talking as if the Islanders had overthrown the Argentinians and invited the Enlgish to come in...

Wikipedia says otherwise, but if you could give me a source....

Baff, I think you are ignoring the very valid point made by others that the actions, claims and crimes of people long dead, as are their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, are immaterial to the modern world. Claims of historical right and wrong are nothing but excuses for nationalism and picking fights.

Especially in a case like this when we are talking about which set of colonial powers' claims had more "rightness" to them. They were all foreigners, long ways from home, claiming land they had no history on.

The Only ones with true rights to the islands are the Penguins. Everyone else is an invader!

VIVA LOS PINGUINOS!

edited 14th Apr '12 9:15:46 PM by Joesolo

If we clung to the idea of "sins of the fathers are visited on the sons" then we'd all be being punished for things we never did, would never dream of doing, and had no control over.

In this particular case, the British held those islands for longer and more legitimately than everyone else. The people of TODAY want fuck all to do with Argentina, and they are consistently ignored by people who want to take them over. It's not the British government that is being imperialistic here. And they also didn't start the fight with Argentina; the Argentines brought it to them and got their asses handed to them on a silver platter. The UK currently owes Argentina exactly fuck all. (Edit; I know it's a little off topic, it's just that mentioning this here kind of bugged me.)

Also, incidentally, Trail of Tears that you mentioned a few pages back is irrelevant to this case as it happened in another continent, and was not an act that involved the governments of the UK or Argentina. They were not at all involved in that particular tragedy.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:30:43 PM by AceofSpades

Nitpicking time: No, Antarctica is claimable and in fact there are a thousand claims. They are just on hiatus thanks to an international agreement.

—

Nationalism that sadly isn't only argentinian.

—

I'm following the thread with attention, I just don't have anything new to say right now... I stated my opinion on this several times already. Basically I agree with several of the things Baff says but also with Morven regarding autodetermination thus I think the best outcome is reach a compromise/trade agreement/whatever... and the government is screwing it up with the confrontational strategy.

edited 14th Apr '12 10:20:20 PM by Anfauglith

Yea, everything's been said already.

I guess all their is left to do is form a conspiracy to change whats going on so we can discuss something again.

So, plant Alien technology on the Falklands or build a new island overnight?

edited 14th Apr '12 10:20:49 PM by Joesolo

I'd like to know what people think of Fuckland :)

(Granted, even this may have been raised somewhere in this thread. Damn it moves fast!)

It strikes me as a bit silly, from the Wikipedia write-up.

@Anfauglith: I do agree that stupid nationalism in this hasn't been only from the Argentinian side. The war was ruthlessly exploited for political advantage in the UK, with the Tory government gleefully stoking nationalism and xenophobia. The behavior of the British press at the time was frankly disgusting. (Obviously, the broadsheets less so than the tabloids, but even still).

Frankly it does sound to me at times as if the British government enjoys being intransigent with the Argentinian one, even today, and especially about South American / South Atlantic issues.

The Argentinian government of the 80s was also completely correct to interpret previous British actions as telegraphing not giving a shit about the Falklanders. They didn't, until the war, doing things like ensuring that Falklanders were no longer full British citizens and reducing aid.

I personally believe that the Penguin Military is more than ready to overtake the British Military, as clearly displayed in this video.

It is my honest belief that this whole situation could come to an agreeable solution if both sides made concessions and allowed the Falklanders a part in the negotiations. Both sides have serious points to make and real grievances. But they won't. The Argentine Government like to use it in a similar way to how China uses Taiwan, in that they use it as a nearby enemy for political advantage. The British are reluctant to denounce any military involvement.

edited 15th Apr '12 4:27:10 AM by Minister

Britain would happily let the Falklanders become Argentine if that was what they wanted. Britain has no actual interest in keeping the islands, the only reason they do is that the islanders themselves keep saying they want to be British.

Not seeing any need for Britain to make any concessions here, since that they'd be making concessions regarding the will of the islanders, which is completely immoral.

I wanted to post some feelings about the thread. I cant only remember a few after read too many posts.

1. I dont think Castilla & associated, or Spanish/Spaniard Empire, or whatever you want to call it started a systematic genocide. Of course, there was wars, and a lot of people were unfairly treated or slaughtered by the Spaniard. Clearly. But America was a isolated area of European/Asian "supercontinent". They were never exposed to those zones disease. The "English Empire" killed most southafrica natives without using a bullet. Or desire it.

2. The native Americans werent pacifists or monolotic entity. Neither in the North, Middle or South. A lot of mexicas and south cultures strongly hate the Aztecs, other "nation". It started a... well, I cant call it "civil war" but you get the point. I guess It was the same in North.

3. Argentina have long tradition on Hand Wave s, even more than Venezuela. It has a lot of internacional denouncements by its economic acts. In fact this days have problems with Repsol and YPF.

4. To finish it, a curiosity. Did you know first caribbean-northamerican slaves were Irish/Scotish? But they died too easy and they were a little more expensive than african ones so they started to buy them in the african coast.

My 2 cents. Sorry about my English.

edited 15th Apr '12 9:31:54 AM by Picheleiro

Actually, in South Africa, it was the Portuguese that initially introduced Small Pox by accident amongst the San peoples. The irony is, by the time they realised there was a problem, most of the people were dead, as the dying tended to happen after the various ships left the area. But, nice try.

The typhoid and typhus in the prototype concentration camps, however... that was almost deliberately done against the Boer families in the Boer War. Well, at least the withholding of treatment was very deliberate. The actual disease could have been forecast. But, I digress...

edited 15th Apr '12 1:28:55 PM by Euodiachloris

Since Baff mentioned it I thought I’d bring back up about French Guiana. I don't know much about it apart from it hosting the European Space Agencie’s space port. Anyone more informed care to enlighten me? I think it would be a good place to compare to the Falklands by the sound of it.

According to wikipedia, there isn't any issue over besides a slight border dispute with suriname, and illegal gold miners. It's got about 200,000 people, most of whom work for the space center in some way shape or form. Has a problem with Illegal gold miners though, and it's been a pain in the ass for the Foreign Legion because of the jungle and the fact the Illegal miners fight back.

edited 15th Apr '12 2:09:27 PM by Joesolo

Baff also claimed that it was currently a penal colony, which turns out to be false. And if it was in the past, well, so was Australia. That's not true now of either country. It has poor soil conditions which make farming a bitch so it depends quite a bit on imports.

So basically, French Guiana is valuable largely because it is in an ideal place for launching stuff into space. Which is not so bad a reason to be important. The Falklands does not seem to have this advantage, but does seem to be entirely self sufficient and have a good tourist industry. I think the only things these two have in common is being in the South American area and being a dependency of some sort on European/UK power. Entirely by the local's choice, by the way.

The Falklands flat out DOSNT have that advantage. Closeness to the equator and, significantly less so, Hight above sea level are what make spots better for space launch.

Islands are good though, as they let the rocket bits fall into water if something goes VERY wrong.

I dindt claim it was a penal colony NOW, but whatever.

Cristina just announced a project to expropriate 51% of YPF's patrimony.

I thought she'd been talking about nationalizing it for a bit now. That's the usual "solution" to any problem down that way, it seems. "Hey, our economy is looking at falling off a cliff with our current spendthrift vote-buying policies. I know! Quick, nationalize that industry!"

In any case, Spain fired back. Given their own financial issues (better discussed in the European economic problems thread elsewhere in OTC), I suspect that Spain will be awfully considerate of supporting the company that pays taxes to the Spanish gov't.

That has nothing to do with the Falk... oh yes, this thread is about Argentina in general :)

Oh Argentinaaaa, Argentinaaaaa, where the giraffes aaaaaaare, and the zebraaaaa... (this song keeps entering my head when I come here...)

edited 16th Apr '12 10:35:34 AM by betaalpha

Oh Argentina

Yes yes because lying to the IMF about your inflation is the smart thing to do and seizing foreign companies because you can't get any investment is going to win you some friends