"Childen should be seen and not heard"-Your opinions

Um... we could just subsidize daycare... no? Er... yeah, I got nothing...

It's not about childcare, USAF. It's about the idea of whether or not children should be quiet little robots or simply left at home all the time. You can subsidize day care all you want, but for the purposes of this topic it doesn't much matter; no one leaves their kids at daycare all the time, and every parent takes their kids with them to the grocery stores at least once. Also, they take their kids to the movie theater because that's where a lot of kids like to go.

Now, see, in a movie theater you're generally encourage to take your kid out if they're too loud, but it's not something that requires dirty looks and disgust from the rest of the audience. Like I said, shit happens and sometimes the kid and parent just have a bad day.

Well... I dunno, I mean, this would take some intriguingly complex social engineering to address.

I doubt that it would end well if we tried, either.

One, I don't hate children. I just, amazingly enough, don't like listening to a screaming child while I'm trying to work and be able to actually hear my customers. Or having a kid sitting in my aisle throwing a temper tantrum and making it impossible for other customers to get rung up. Or having a kid busy knocking everything onto the floor in a mess I have to waste my time picking up. Or having customers walk out of the store because a mother is busy yelling at her misbehaving child at the top of her lungs and spanking them.

They're the one who chose to have kids, not us. If you can't keep your having kids from disrupting everyone around you, then don't have kids. I'm tired of parents acting like it's everyone else's job to deal with their children, and if we ask them to not disrupt the lives of everyone around them who didn't choose to have their kids, we're somehow unreasonable and hate children. Because expecting everyone to have to put up with your kid disrupting everything is perfectly reasonable, I take it?

Having children does not give you a god-given right to impose on everyone else. If you can't take care of your children without being a burden on everyone else who didn't choose to have your children, don't have any. Simple. I'm tired of this sense of entitlement on the part of parents that of course we should be happy to put up with whatever their children do no matter how much of an imposition it is on us, otherwise we're horrible meanies donchaknow.

edited 20th Oct '11 9:25:43 PM by Jeysie

Is it the international Day of Hyperbole or something? I've worked in retail too, and the service industry, and I've worked at a place where lots of parents bring small children, and though the crying is annoying, it's not such a fucking end of the world that I want to throw a condom and a babysitter at every person I see with a kid. Why so entitled? How is "leave your kids at home" any more feasible an advice than "find a different job if the conditions of this one aren't working out for you"?

You don't like it? Find new occupation.

@kashchei

Because you're the one who chose to have your kids and raise them, while "putting up with your children" is not part of the job description I signed up for?

If I get a job as a cashier, it's because I want to be a cashier, not your babysitter or nanny.

Again, having kids does not mean everyone else is magically obligated to put up with your kids' shit.

@mailedbypostman

If they don't like it, don't have kids. Again, putting up with the shit other people's kids do was not my occupation.

Seriously, why is it unreasonable to not want to put up with other people's kids misbehaving, but reasonable for parents to expect everyone else to put up with their kids?

edited 20th Oct '11 10:38:18 PM by Jeysie

Yeah, which is more likely to happen though? Them deciding not to have kids on the chance that one day the kid might break down? Really dude?

Edit: Okay, I think your position makes some more sense now. Is there a reason why you can't eject them for repeated disturbances?

edited 20th Oct '11 10:41:23 PM by mailedbypostman

The number of parents who don't give a rat's ass that their kid is causing a scene is far smaller than you're making it sound, Jeysie. You're inconvenienced. You know what? Life is just cram-jammed with inconveniences, and that's not going to change.

And when did it change from "They're fussing, how horrible" to you having to babysit them? There's a substantial difference between those things.

edited 20th Oct '11 10:44:22 PM by Madrugada

First off, you're not the one dealing with it. You're a bystander to whatever situation caused the kid to kick up a fuss. (At least, I would hope you're just a bystander.) The parent does their best to quiet the kid down. It's not an obligation, but they're not obligated to leave their kid at home just because you're annoyed. You don't know if they can afford a babysitter, or if the timing was right for them, or anything of the fucking sort. Expecting them not to annoy you is you fucking imposing an obligation on them.

Their lives should not be structured around making things less inconvenient for someone who happens to not like kids. They don't mean to do it, and kids are chaos incarnate. Also, if you work in retail, dealing with other people's shit kind of comes with the territory. There are worse things than parents and children unintentionally annoying you in the retail industry, and you have not suggested reasonable alternatives. Hint; if the kid is with them then they generally had no other option than to bring the kid with them to the store.

@Madrugada

Because I'm tired of, well, like I said. I don't hate children, but I do hate the sense of entitlement too many parents I've encountered have.

In addition to the disruptions I've mentioned here, I've had to deal with things like kids being absolutely horrible on the bus where you're stuck dealing with them for a half-hour to an hour ride. Including the mother who glared at me like I was some horrible being when I asked if maybe her kid could, I dunno, wait until he got home to play the incredibly loud ear-piercing whistle she bought him, instead of letting him play it nonstop for the entire half-hour bus ride?

I've also had to deal with things like parents having me cover shifts for them regularly, or handle portions of extremely busy shifts single-handledly because they left early, all to deal with their children. And when I start complaining that, you know, I don't mind doing it occasionally but I can't keep spending all my time doing both mine and their jobs because they don't get their hours properly reworked with the boss or find better arrangement for their kids or something, I get told "Well, you don't have kids, so it's no big deal for you to use up your free time" or something.

When part of the reason I chose to not have kids is because I would rather have the free time, yet here I am constantly being expected to give up my free time for your kids.

And when I complain about any of this, I get bitched at. It gets kind of argh after a while.

And it's a lot more than just "fussing". Try more like full-on screaming. And every other example I gave has happened at least once to me.

@mailedbypostman

I wish, but many times it happens in the register aisle, where it's faster to just try and get them rung up and out the door anyway. Plus, if the customer gets crabby about being asked to leave, you spend almost as much time arguing with them as you would have just getting them helped and gone.

Retail. Bleah. If I never have to go back to it, it'll be too soon. Though thanks to this economy...

@Ace

And them expecting me to put up with their kids' shit is imposing an obligation on me. Point?

Why not? Why I should I have to put up with someone else's kids that I didn't choose to have? If I wanted to be inconvenienced by kids, I would choose to have my own.

And for heaven's sake. Again, I like kids just fine when they're not friggin' screaming or knocking things over or the disruptive things that are why I chose to not have kids.

edited 20th Oct '11 11:05:49 PM by Jeysie

Guess I just like kids more than an average guy, because I think the kids potential to cheer me up is worth their potential to cause disruption.

Because you chose to work in an occupation that deals with people. Which means you have to deal with them. It's not like they're forcing you to babysit them. They're going to leave the store eventually.

Sigh.

OK, you know what? Everyone telling me that I'm somehow unreasonable for not enjoying putting up with the misbehavior and other issues caused by other people's kids, especially when not wanting to deal with those issues is why I chose to not have my own children, and that it means I therefore must hate children because apparently it's impossible to actually, I dunno, just not like the disruptive behavior and be absolutely totally perfectly fine with children when they're not misbehaving...

That's pretty much exactly why this sort of thing annoys the hell out of me. Again, the sense of entitlement people have, or have on the behalf of parents, where everyone is expected to happily accommodate them and everything their kids do no matter the imposition just because they chose to pop out some kids, is really aggravating.

That's my last word on the matter. Sorry for bothering all of you.

There is a time and a place for everything.

If Im at TGI Fridays or Mc Donalds, screaming kids are part of the deal.

If Im on a date at a $50+ a plate restaurant, screaming kids are not appropriate.

Same goes for G/PG-13 movies vs R rated movies.

The one thing I do hate... is that the people with kids at my work can fall asleep on the job or call out 4-5 times a month it's excuseable because they have children.

If I fall asleep on the job or call out that much I will get disciplined and or fired. I am currently enrolled full time at a university and working full time, I get exhausted too! I find it a bit discriminatory that their lifestyle choice trumps mine :(

^ Infants have a way of wreaking havoc with your sleep schedule, even if you're the dad. It's worse if you're the mother, usually, and breast-feed. I've had my share of sleepless nights as a parent.

I feel for the OP. Which is why, if I can help it, I don't drag a moody kid into a store if I don't have to, and if my kid up and decides to have a Bad Hair Day because I won't buy them the latest shiny item they happened to see or whatever the reason is, I deal with it. Store clerks aren't responsible for my kids, I am. I do wish more parents were like this, as I've seen the nuclear meltdowns in the store. It's aggravating.

Granted, I have the benefit of being part of a functional "nuclear family". Not all families are like that.

As VHEM arguments go, that's a creative one.

Dude. Nobody can guarantee that their kids will never be a problem in public. And everyone who has kids has to bring them on errands sometimes. You are making an unreasonable demand of parents.

Well, once I was old enough to walk, I was old enough to know not to be an annoying little turd when other people are around.

Holding others to my own standards of conduct, I hereby propose that children who are of such an age that they should know better than to make a nuisance of themselves, and yet proceed to carry on noisily in public, be drop-punted.

Also, what's with parents who let their kids go grabbing things off the shelves, opening them, and eating them?

I'm sorry, Jeysie, but "will my kid piss off an oversensitive clerk" just doesn't rank as high as "can I afford a child" or "do I want a child with this person" or "how will having a child fit into the demands of my continued education" on my checklist of things to consider before I take a stroll down to Planned Parenthood. For someone accusing others of entitlement, you have very odd expectations for how people should make their progenitive choices.

^ As someone who had learned to walk before the age of eighteen, I find your standards of conduct grossly inoperable.

edited 21st Oct '11 10:50:49 AM by kashchei

^^ I don't see your form of enforcement happening.

Kids act up. Fact of life. All you can do as a parent is react appropriately. What do you tell the parent of the child who's 14, wearing a diaper and in a wheelchair with a crippling mental deficiency?

"Hey, can you get your retard to shut the freak up for five freaking minutes? I'm trying to excercise my God-given right to shop here, and I'm about to drop-kick your overgrown infant into the parking lot. God, you people shouldn't have even bred with one another."

No. You don't say such things, becasue it's not their fault, and saying such things marks you as a callous unfeeling jerk.

If the kid is otherwise normal, then you're allowed to think such things, but I'd advise against actually saying it in public. But then again, how do you know? The child might have ADHD, or Asbergers, or whatever else. Just look at this site; so many here identify with some sort of mental thing that explains why they don't play well with others.

Just out of curiosity... Why don't you just ignore the noise? I take the bus with crying babies all the time and not once have I ever got to the thought "well this noise is an irritant". It's just noise. I mean maybe shit has changed since two days ago, but it's not like the noise can cause you physical pain.

Here's another idea; simply ask the parent nicely to get their kid to quiet down. I've had some success with this, as some parents get used to a screaming kid as part of the scenery and forget that not everyone is. Sounds crazy, but it happens.

I think parents teaching their children decent standards of behavior is a part of parenting, and people who don't do it are failing in their duties. However, as has been stated before, kids act up.

Its annoying to me to be in a store or restaurant and deal with a screaming brat, the same way its annoying to me to be cut off in traffic, get my toes stepped on, have my cigarette extinguished by an errant raindrop, etc. but there's a big gulf between "X is annoying" and "there ought to be a law against X".

There's a difference between not being silent, and being obnoxiously loud. It's not that kids should be seen and not heard (the thought nauseates me), it's that kids shouldn't be obnoxiously disrupting everything around them the same way nobody else should be obnoxiously disrupting everything around them. The goal is ultimately to teach them to be productive members of society, and that is a rather crucial part.

If it's an infant crying or something, obviously there's not a lesson to be taught yet, but in the meantime they're still disrupting things. It's the parent's responsibility to take them someplace else to deal with it properly (even in places like airplanes, I've seen stewardesses let the parent take them into the back to at least put some distance there). To not do so is disrespectful of the parent to everyone else.

If the kid is raising hell and is old enough to know better, and the parent isn't doing anything, that's being a really shitty parent and I don't have high hopes for the kid. I'm sorry.

^ I pretty much agree with you. Infants are challenging as they are unpredictable and their only way to communicate that they're uncomfortable is to cry.

Then you check the basic things: Diaper full? Hungry? Tired? Clingly? Usually it's something on that list, and life goes on.

Teething sucks. They go from totally fine to 95dB in nano-seconds. Best thing ever? Teething swabs; numbs up their gums real good.

I have more compassion for the parent with a fussy infant, as I've been there. Probably will be there again.

Gah, I agree with this on airplanes. You are trapped with kids. Infants are not something you can really do anything about (though the post above about letting the parents take the infants in the back was good) aside from dealing with the kids' issue. But toddlers and older kids? I was five when I was first taken on a plane. Guess how disruptive I was? I knew better.

When my friend and I were returning from Germany, we hadn't slept the night before (last night there + no alarm clock = ok fine we'll sleep on the plane). But there were two four/five year old kids that were allowed to run around and be as loud as humanly possible. And you're trapped with them. You cannot escape. Parents should have to pay a deposit when they get on a plane that guarantees their (controllable) child's behavior.

When we encountered turbulence on the descent the first thought that crossed my mind was, "Well at least if the plane crashes these damn kids and their moms will go with us."