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Support. This name is completely unintuitive.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
You're right, that's a terrible snowclone. It's a surprise in the mirror, not a tomato surprise in the mirror, and definitely not a tomato in the mirror.
Tomato Surprise probably has its share of misuse, considering that there's no way to connect its meaning to its name, not even after you read the trope page. I don't want to do a proper sick check because of all the spoilers, but I see misuse in these pages:
Gentleman Troper!
I've never understood what these trope names are for. Tomato Surprise sounds like a chef's dish in a French restaurant, and Snow Cloning off what is already a weird title never seems to help much.
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Apparently, Tomato Surprise came from a trope list in a 1980 book. The author gave, as an example, "the work hides the main character's being a tomato." I suppose that was meant to be a particularly ridiculous example, not a typical one. That makes it an okay name when mocking the trope but a poor one for our purposes.
Wait, this is a snowclone? I thought the tropes, by coincidence, had similar names...
One Winged Egret
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
But it also means it's a pre-existing term, which gives it some weight.
They've both pre-existing terms. This is actually a pre-existing snowclone if that makes sense. The base tomato tropes are standard lit crit terms.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Gentleman Troper!
I don't believe they're commonly accepted terms. Both Google and That Other Wiki indicate that the most common usage of "tomato surprise" is, indeed, a cocktail or other recipe involving tomatoes.
Even if they're preexisting terms, I think you need to show that they've widespread usage instead of being used by fourteen people who all live in a shack in Alaska or something.
Well, the episode of Big O I was watching last night was referencing them as if they were common knowledge.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Uh huh, and I used to think Big O was the trope namer. But I've never seen it referenced anywhere apart from there. For all I know the tomato thing was just a coincidence, not a reference.
I've heard it used before, can't remember when or where exactly at the moment, but I've heard it.
I see the Awesomeness.
I thought Big O was the namer as well. Never heard it before that, but Lit Crit is something I get along with in the same vein as anti-matter.
Fight smart, not fair.
I thought Tomato in the Mirror was a writer's inside joke reference to a Twilight episode.
Gentleman Troper!
So yeah. Given that Tomato Surprise is mostly a culinary term, and Tomato in the Mirror is a Snow Clone of Tomato Surprise but actually means something different, are there any objections to swap Tomato in the Mirror with its redirect "Monster In The Mirror", as the OP suggests?
edited 17th Oct '11 4:05:48 AM by Spark9
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Dunkies addict
shimaspawn: The reference in The Big O is at most sideways, and possibly a coincidence - when he says "I'm one of the tomatoes," it's a metaphor involving a crop of actual tomatoes.
My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
The tomatoes are used as symbolism in The Big O, for something that happens to -also- be a Tomato Surprise / Tomato in the Mirror moment, where Roger realizes that he's just following along what he's expected to do like everyone else.
edited 17th Oct '11 7:02:56 AM by savage
Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Lost in Space
The "Tomato" tropes are preexisting and fairly well-established terms for these things. They are also very unintuitive to people not already familiar with them. Both conditions apply, which makes them ripe for getting redirects.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Dunkies addict
...yes?
My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
They're pre-existing. Are they well-established? Google searches turn up only us (and irrelevant recipes).
"Pre-existing" normally assumes pre-existing and well-known. Surely someone 30 years ago coining a term that failed to catch on isn't the same as the world at large using a term.
Dunkies addict
Yeah - given the response here, I'm wondering whether the other should be renamed, too, even though all I can think of for that is Jar Of Tang Twist, which is really just as bad, albeit slightly better known.
My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
I thought they were pre-existing terms among writers, which has a very high value in keeping- even if it's obscure among other groups.
Yes, the are pre-existing lit crit terms. They are not common among people who don't analyse media, but as this is a site for analysing media, it makes sense to use the accepted terms for doing so.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Dragon Writer
@Routerie: Completely agree. Anybody can make up a term to describe something (heck, we do that all the time!), but it's only considered a "pre-existing phrase" if it catches on with the outside world.
edited 17th Oct '11 9:03:39 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
It's just that it seems to be a Bad Snowclone of Tomato Surprise, and we've already got a serviceable redirect. Tomato Surprise says specifically that it's a surprise to the audience that wouldn't surprise the characters, when the definition of Tomato in the Mirror always surprises at least one character, and usually surprises nearly everyone.
...yeah, I'm probably never going to get off my ass and start a crowner...
My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.