overhaul ? New Crowner (9/13/11): Lolicon

EDIT: After further investigation I have decided that the name is smaller problem than the overall brokeness of the trope, and distracts from the bigger issue. In other words, don't worry too much about that side of things just yet.

As most here already know, "Lolicon" ("ロリコン") is a Japanese word which comes from "Lolita Complex". Although it pops up in some Japanese works, there are plenty of pages which list it for works from other countries. Therefore -despite what the trope page says- it is not a Japan specific trope, which in turn means there are terms from other languages which could easily be used.

This may simply be a discrepancy between what the trope is supposed to be and tropers' use of it, but, like natural languages, that means only that the definition needs to change to reflect its usage.

Regardless, TV Tropes is an English language site, and the majority of its contributors are native English speakers, so a word/phrase from English would be more readily understood in both meaning and cultural ramifications (the later being important when analysing/understanding a work). To my mind, it would be better to make the trope description more generalised, but cover cultural differences on its page (such as the Japanese censorship loophole thing).

As to possible alternative: According to http://ja.w3dictionary.org/index.php?q=%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3 this, http://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-japanese/lolita-complex this, http://jiten.net/ this (input either "lolita complex" or "ロリコン"), and http://eow.alc.co.jp/ロリコン/UTF-8/ this, lolicon translates to pedophile/paedophilia. This seems like the natural choice; Direct translation of the current trope name, in English, and should be readily understood by the majority of readers. But there may be other options which fit.

edited 31st Aug '11 12:06:24 AM by ggfd

It's an exampleless definition page. It shouldn't be showing up outside of places where the term is actually used. In English, this is simply called "pedophile." There's no need to rename this, but we might need that pedophile trope, I can't find it anywhere.

Here's the OP without links (so that it'll show up):

As most here already know, "Lolicon" ("ロリコン") is a Japanese word which comes from "Lolita Complex". Although it pops up in some Japanese works, there are plenty of pages which list it for works from other countries. Therefore -despite what the trope page says- it is not a Japan specific trope, which in turn means there are terms from other languages which could easily be used.

This may simply be a discrepancy between what the trope is supposed to be and tropers' use of it, but, like natural languages, that means only that the definition needs to change to reflect its usage.

Regardless, TV Tropes is an English language site, and the majority of its contributors are native English speakers, so a word/phrase from English would be more readily understood in both meaning and cultural ramifications (the later being important when analysing/understanding a work). To my mind, it would be better to make the trope description more generalised, but cover cultural differences on its page (such as the Japanese censorship loophole thing).

As to possible alternative: According to this, this, this (input either "lolita complex" or "ロリコン"), and this, lolicon translates to pedophile/paedophilia. This seems like the natural choice; Direct translation of the current trope name, in English, and should be readily understood by the majority of readers. But there may be other options which fit.

edited 28th Aug '11 7:50:47 PM by ggfd

I'm pretty sure pedophilia and lolicon have two totally different contexts. Pretty sure, anyway. I might be wrong - maybe it's just the connotations I'm used to.

Well that's weird, we don't have any pedophile trope. We have Pedo Hunt and Pedophile Priest, but nothing more general. Odd.

And yeah, there is a difference. In Japan its seen as just another weird fetish they don't want spilling into the real world, while in the Western world it is a very hot button topic.

But this is just getting misused because we don't have the appropriate pedophile trope. ggfd, do you want to send that to You Know That Thing Where?

I believe there's Little Kid Lover.

Anyway, while I find it distasteful and creepy a lolicon is not quite the same thing as a pedophile, which is in large part due to how they're portrayed.

That should probably have pedophile as a redirect.

Have a look at the links I was trying to use. You can find them on the Lolicon discussion page, down the bbottom. It really does translate as "pedophile".

EDIT: From what I gather, it is not "just a fetish". Japan is not a magical land where anything goes; They do not look kindly on people taking advantage of/abusing children. Many people on the internet have picked up their understanding of Japanese culture from anime, which frequently results in in a perception which is about as accurate as one based on western animation.

Similairly: "An otaku is an obsessive hobbyist and generally, the image of these people is one of socially dysfunctional individuals, gloomy, unkempt and possibly with a Lolita complex.〔【出典】Hiragana Times, 2005"

EDIT 2: It occurs to me that some may be offended by my last paragraph. Please don't be; I was not directing it at any one or group (aside from people who misuse the word ). It was merely an illustrative example.

edited 28th Aug '11 8:22:08 PM by ggfd

No kidding.

That being said, its not used in quite the same way.

Little Kid Lover is about someone mistaken for a pedophile, played for laughs.

Yeah, I probably got the lolicon definition wrong. That definition is mostly from hentai—I mean anime.

Either way, this doesn't need a rename. It's like trying to rename Kayfabe; it should only be showing up in places where its actually mentioned. What we need is the pedophile trope to catch all the misuse. Assuming their is misuse, of course. No one's actually looked at the wicks.

I am aware that lolicon is looked down upon even in Japan. However, that doesn't matter because in the majority of Japanese media that I am thinking of it is not quite portrayed the same way that pedophiles in the West are. I mean, how many Western series can you think of that without edging into black humor portray pedophilia comically? Hell, I can't even think of many that don't portray pedophiles as complete utter scum of the Earth completely lacking in redeeming qualities.

Lolicon can be played for laughs in a light hearted, normal series. Pedophilia has to be demonized.

^ Ah, is it? Then we need a genuine pedophilia trope.

edited 28th Aug '11 8:23:41 PM by Arha

Right, there would never be a major action series in the US where the main character's defining trait is that he likes little girls.

Or Char.

The Char thing is mostly a fandom joke.

Mostly.

...okay, maybe I'm really missing something, but aren't those both anime? They don't count as US.

They were reinforcing the point that lolicon is a completely different portrayal of pedophilia. Thus, we need a new trope because lolicon really doesn't cover it.

A Lolicon is almost always played for comedy in normal non-hentai Anime. Or flat out catered to via Moe or Loli Fanservice.

There are some other examples that are just Values Dissonance here and there (mostly in the Wife Husbandry department)

A Pedo in the rest of the world will never actually get played for comedy or played non-creepy.

edited 29th Aug '11 8:36:07 AM by Raso

One issue though is the term Loli is currently directed at Lolicon.

Shouldnt Loli have its own page? (no examples those would probably go to Token Loli, Elegant Gothic Lolita and a couple other tropes.)

edited 28th Aug '11 9:33:21 PM by Raso

Actually, pedos do get played for comedy in the west. There's one on Family Guy, for example. And that's a fairly mainstream example. Outside the mainsteam, there's even more. It's often played as creepy on both sides of the Atlantic as well. There really isn't that much difference between, say, the principal from To Love Ru and the creepy old guy from Family Guy. The biggest difference is probably that they never actually come out and say the guy is a perv in Family Guy.

The guy is kinda Shotacon and gay. Not this. (Even then he is way way different than a Shotacon and his target is far too old.)

We have an Ephebophile trope and he goes there.

Lolicon and Shotacon are exampleless term pages mostly now (since examples were ditched and locked). An actual pedo page should be the same but on it's own page.

edited 29th Aug '11 8:40:54 AM by Raso

Yeah, Loli should be its own page, also exampleless, pointing to Elegant Gothic Lolita, Token Loli, and so on. I'm not sure about Shota, but I guess there's no harm in adding it.

You could make loli and shota the same page and just focus how unlike in other media, the frequently sexual portrayal of children or characters who look like children is not viewed the same in anime and related works. There's definitely no need to have examples on the page and that's the only content I can think of that makes it even really worth having a page on them. As a basis, anyway. From there it can go into a bit more detail.

Wrote up a quick and dirty sandbox page here. It too might need a few more tropes, or maybe I just can't find them.

edited 29th Aug '11 1:17:29 PM by Discar

Examples should stay off pages like that, since no one should be helping people find lolicon material.

edited 29th Aug '11 2:53:41 PM by Culex

Er, no. Examples should be kept off because there are lolis in essentially ever anime related medium ever.