Rename (New Crowner 12.12): The Jor El

This is trope is named after Superman's father. I was never a fan of Superman comics so I've never heard of this guy. I think we should rename it.

Assuming you not knowing of it is not a valid argument, as it's inverse Fan Myopia.

Go for it being a character named trope. Go for Jor-El not being only for the guy not listened to. But DON'T use you not hearing of it as some kind of argument.

Ok after 3 attempts to fix it I fixed the tag to the page.

Umm really wtf is this trope? The laconic is no help at all.... "He warned you, but you didn't listen."

Scientific Doomsayer?

edited 22nd Aug '11 12:26:06 PM by Raso

That doesn't sound like a spectacularly well-used trope. I'm not really sure, though...

It's supposed to be Cassandra Truth, but with SCIENCE! instead of any mysticism.

I'd say a rename is in order. Scientific Doomsayer doesn't sound too bad...

edited 22nd Aug '11 12:36:46 PM by USAF713

Dragon Quest, the page for renaming guidelines, "Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Names" lists as character-named tropes as candidates for renaming, because "No character is so iconic that everyone will instantly recognize what it means to be, for example, 'The John Smith'. For people who aren't familiar with the character, all characters might as well be named John Smith." I am merely pointing out that I am among those people who have never heard of Jor-El.

I know who Jor El is without being a fan of comics and I'm pretty sure I knew before coming to tvtropes. But I won't assume that everyone else just happens to know who he is. So, yeah, rename.

I mentioned being a character named trope as a reason. But "not everyone has heard of it" was not your argument. Your argument only mentioned you yourself not having heart of it.

Maybe a wick check?

Professor Cassandra was the first title that popped into my head, although I can't see that going well.

Isn't this just Cassandra Truth But More Specific? :/

USAF 713: Cassandra Truth doesn't require any sort of mysticism, just that you're telling the truth and no one listens/believes you.

Edit: actually, now that I've looked at The Jor-El page again, it calls itself a 'modern-day counterpart to Cassandra Truth', which is wrong: Cassandra Truth just means it's true and no one believes it. It's not tied to any particular -type- of story.

I... am going to vote merge with Cassandra Truth. It appears to THINK there's a mystic component to Cassandra Truth when there doesn't need to be... and I don't believe Cassandra Truth was EVER limited to mystic examples only. If it ever was, that's outdated and there's no need for a trope that's just Cassandra Truth But With Technobabble.

edited 24th Aug '11 11:38:50 AM by savage

I think there is a difference. A scientific prediction of doomsday means that skepticism is inherently justified, because science is all about skepticism. It's a valid subtrope, because it's played in a specific way, which is different from the more general predictions-of-disaster trope. Even when the supposed science is really just Technobabble, it's still played differently.

Professor Doomsayer or Doctor Doomsayer?

I agree that there's a difference between Cassandra Truth and The Jor-El. Cassandra Truth covers things like the kid who tells his daddy that there's a monster in the garden and isn't believed, even though there really is a monster in the garden.

The Jor-El is specific to scientists or other experts, speaking about their area of expertise and not being believed: the seismologist telling the governor that the volcano outside of town is going to blow; the building inspector who says, "this building isn't safe and here's why" just before the skyscraper turns into a Towering Inferno; Jor-El telling the other Kryptonians that the planet is going to explode.

The difficulty with calling it "The modern counterpart" is that it's misstating what Cassandra Truth is. I've changed that line to be more accurate.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:11:04 AM by Madrugada

I've never been all that thrilled with this trope; that said, I can see one value in it. Cassandra Truth is about the statement itself, this trope is specifically about the one saying it. I.e. The Jor-El is a scientist speaking a Cassandra Truth.

Given that, this trope is the scientific version of The Cassandra, not Cassandra Truth. Well, more specifically, this is The Cassandra who has based their statement on analysis of findings rather than a revelation of some kind.

Given that the dismissal of the beliefs is vital for the trope, I think going a little more specific and calling it Ignored Professor Doomsayer would be a stronger title.

Here's how the three tropes are related:

• Supertrope: Cassandra Truth: Someone says something that is true, but is not believed.
  • The Cassandra: The person telling the truth should be considered credible because of their track record. Why they've been right in the past is irrelevant, only that they have been often enough that they have a record of being right.
  • The Jor-El: The person telling the truth should be credible because of their expertise or level of knowledge on the subject.

edited 25th Aug '11 8:32:10 AM by Madrugada

I also didn't knew who Jor El was. I was thinking The Ignored Doomsday Expert, as a rename, but then again we would also need to change The Cassandra into The Ignored Dommsday Prophet, although this is unecessary, because Classical Mythology is more well known than comic strips, around the world. Comics are...moslty Eagle Land only.

This might be pointless hairsplitting, but I thought The Cassandra and Cassandra Truth were sister tropes because they relate to different parts of the same plot element (one is about the piece of information, the other is about who relays it), and The Cassandra is the supertrope of The Jor-El.

That aside, though, what works better, using "expert" or "professor" in the trope name? I like the latter, since it learns more towards "has several degrees to demonstrate expertise." That said, I wouldn't complain too much if people liked "expert" more.

"Expert". Someone doesn't have to be a professor to be an expert.

I misinterpreted the trope, then. It appears that the creator of this trope, did, as well, though I think Mad's subtle trope distinction works very well...

Maddy explained the difference much better than I did. I endorse her proposed relationship between the three tropes. On the other hand, I think a name with "professor" shouldn't be rejected out of hand, if it fits and seems clear enough. Especially if it is also concise and witty. Tropes Are Flexible. But it would have to be clear, since that's our prime directive.

I kind of like Ignored Doomsday Professor. I know it doesn't have to be about scientists but the professor really helps to differentiate it from The Cassandra, and Tropes Are Flexible.

The Cassandra is actually seeing a ton of misuse to men "The Person who tells Casandra Truths all the time, period."

Not to toot my own horn, but I think Doctor Doomsayer works well because:

• It's short
• It has Added Alliterative Appeal
• It emphasizes the "knowledgeable" criteria
• It's a nice pun on Doctor Doom.

But it avoids the most important aspect: No one's listening to him.

Also, it's a pun on someone WHO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TROPE lol. It's likely to cause confusion.

edited 18th Sep '11 10:04:50 AM by Ghilz

True, naming it after Doctor Doom will just make it more confusing.