"Hatred" between the EU and USA

I felt that, given the latest outbreaks of nationalistic dick waving in the previous couple of threads, that this needed to be addressed.

The EU and USA are both democratic powers, (I use "powers" to describe the EU with reserve) with similar ideologies, systems and attitudes. One is a bit less willing to get involved in fights away from home and more focussed on welfare than the other, but seriously guys; there might be some bitterness over American bases (from the American side) and some disquiet over the Iraq war (on the European side) but seriously, if these two entities can't get along together, who can? Are we going to go back to the days of great powers scheming against each other until war finally breaks out?

People in Europe and the USA talk about one another as if they were alien lifeforms; things to be feared and hated. And I've seen it even on this forum; from both sides. Seriously, can't the democratic powers at least get along?

edited 19th Aug '11 1:30:54 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

European culture is alien. Even British culture is getting to be... out there.

You will do well to remember that Europe and America never were friends. That is a product of World War Two and the Cold War, and it's ended as fast as it happened. It was a mistake to think we could be anything more than business partners with anyone but Britain in Europe. We just don't see eye-to-eye with any of the other nations there...

Edit: Can we get along? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we're friends. Not with the EU as a whole.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:33:33 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

(rolls eyes)

USAF, come on. Compared to places like China and Russia the USA and the European nations are practically twins, albeit with different paths.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Not really. America was born of defiant rebellion against Europe. It was a given that we would end up being vastly different, culturally-speaking.

I don't have a problem with Europe. I like them, as people. I do not like their governments, however, and don't think there is anything to gain by trying to force ourselves into being friends with anyone but Britain. I like the British government. I think we're different, but similar enough that it's fine.

The rest, though? Not so much...

I am now known as Flyboy.

But according to our political speakers, the EU is fascist, socialist, and full of commies.

In other words, we're not going to get along until the US stops being so reactionary.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Oh, yes, it's obviously all our fault.

Edit: Yes, we say stupid things about Europe. It's not like they don't do the same for us...

edited 19th Aug '11 1:38:14 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

To be fair, most of the negative things I've heard about us have been more accurate than what we say about them.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

The only time the US and Europe have had serious disagreements was in Iraq. Aside from Vietnam there have been European soldiers fighting beside US Ain forces in just about every major conflict.

And Iraq even got a good proportion of the American populations backs up.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:40:48 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Most? Probably. Not all, though. It's the things that aren't true that bother me.

I'd like to believe the only difference America and Europe have is Iraq, but I really think it goes deeper than that.

I am now known as Flyboy.

If it does, nobody has ever acted on it. Oh, and the US and Britain have clashed before. Look up Suez crisis and the Steel Wars. The Brits lost both.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Yeah, but the Suez Crisis is one of about 3 instances in the last 150 years where the US really did have to go, "you know, you guys are being dicks here."

I am now known as Flyboy.

The US and EU can and do "get along". It doesn't mean that we're holding hands and skipping through fields of daffodils. We maintain stable diplomatic and trade relations, we aren't fighting each other, and the US even has one of its largest military bases on European soil. For two huge entities, that's about as good as it gets.

There are plenty of things that the US does that the EU doesn't like, but it hasn't got to the point of another war, and it doesn't look like it would. During the Cold War, the US basically saw Western Europe and Japan as buffer zones between us and Commie Land. That obviously isn't the case anymore, and I don't think the US sees Europe as anything much more than an old geezer who's always pining about the "Good Old Days".

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

Like what? I've mostly heard stuff about how our political system is basically a huge farce (fairly accurate, considering that our two primary parties refuse to get along), and that Americans are selfish and uneducated (also fairly accurate, considering that most of their exposure to us have been through the internet, and our educational system lags far behind theirs).

I've heard all sorts of nasty (and completely false) things about the EU, like how they're planning on taking over the US, how they're a socialist hellhole of poverty and depravity, how they're tyrannical fascists, and so on.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:46:31 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Well we paid for and built the flaming thing, from Britains perspective. And the Egyptians violated their end of the bargain.

Still, bombing Cairo for it was outrageous. And colluding with France and Israel to do it, even more shameful. Apparently we didn't even have the guts to take our quarrels with the Egyptians and deal with it ourselves. That was a black mark for Britain.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:48:46 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

The thing that makes it ridiculous for me was that you invaded over an economic dispute. With the French and Israelis. If it had just been you we might have sympathized. But, really now.

It's funny that it was like the only time both superpowers had to work together to stop the stupid shit, though.

Anyhow, the basic discrepancy is thus:

• America is founded on negative liberty; i.e. less government = more freedom = we must have less government
• European nations are founded on no ideal, but they have observed that positive liberty works better for them; i.e. more government = more aid for people = we must have more government.

This, in and of itself, is a huge thing to overcome...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Eh, its both liberty. One was forged, the other evolved. They might be at opposite poles, but its still based on the principle of choosing your governments and not being too much of a dick to people. Or at least, your own people. Both entities have proven themselves willing to be a dick to others.

We're Not So Different.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:53:56 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Well, truth be told, I think even if we were in an ideal world where Americans realized that we need both kinds of liberty, I don't think we'd get along, either way.

Europe was, once upon a time, the Peninsula of Superpowers. The EU is them reclaiming the former glory by banding what power they still have together.

Simply put, we've become competing powers, and the world is our chessboard...

edited 19th Aug '11 1:57:10 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Incorrect. The United States rebelled against England, and won the resulting war thanks largely to the assistance of France.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story

Well, Britain is Europe, no? The French (and Spanish, remember) helped out of political expediency, not because they wanted to be friends with us.

They thought we'd fall right away and then they'd be able to pick up the pieces...

I am now known as Flyboy.

I think anyone in Europe with half a brain can see that caring for ones citizens is more important than claiming an arbitrary number one spot in the world power leagues. We've seen how that ends, and would rather spend our money treating our citizens and educating our youth. Outside considerations are secondary as far as European powers are concerned. Britain and France seem to be the tenuous exceptions.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

And I think that "outside considerations" should be secondary, as well, for the US.

Hell, if we used my foreign policy, Europe would probably like us more, because we'd be out of everyone's business. But we don't, and so we're unlikely to keep being buddy-buddy for long...

edited 19th Aug '11 2:02:40 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

I'd also stake my life on Europe coming to the US As aid in the event of it being in serious trouble. Aside from anything else, there's the small matter of payback...

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

USAF: Every major Western power declared war against the British between 1775 and 1783.

Actually, most EU countries have negative liberty (as I understand it) too but to say that no European country was formed on no ideal is being naive. I think most of the hate from the EU towards the USA is because we see the USA as nothing more than a tyrannical colonial nation and it a reminder of the less heroic parts of European history.

Dutch Lesbian

What did we do?!

Actually, knowing Britain in 1775, probably quite a lot.

EDIT: Ah, right. So basically we had a moment of weakness and people decided it was a good time to jump us.

edited 19th Aug '11 2:06:57 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Game Chainsaw, everyone could smell British blood in the water so to speak.

Dutch Lesbian