Speaking of getting a job, I have to contact someone who is ridiculously patronizing towards me because I'm autistic because I need her help getting a research position. She understands I'm smart (called me "one of the smartest people [she's] ever met") but thinks I need to be coached like a toddler through basic social situations ("When someone says hello, you say hello back!") And apparently she brags about me to other people, and brags about how she's "helping me." Like I'm her little awkward autistic genius that she's training like a puppy to engage in basic social acts. This'll be fun. -plasters on fake smile-
edited 1st Oct '16 7:23:09 PM by Cailleach
I've heard of autistics who say they ended up being told at work they needed to "relax" and "socialize more". Fuck that shit.
I've heard that in men, not socializing at work is seen as being "quiet and creepy", whereas in women, it's seen as being "stuck up and snobby". Fuck that gender role shit too.
edited 1st Oct '16 6:44:02 PM by BonsaiForest
I have always been under the assumption that socializing on company time was explicitly something that you weren't supposed to do.
"Sorry, your productivity is just too high. Instead of doing the job you're being paid for, go engage in awkward small talk with someone and stop earning the company money for a change."
?
edited 1st Oct '16 6:56:45 PM by Cailleach
Rules are rules, until suddenly they're not.
But yeah, there's all sorts of unwritten exceptions to the so-called rules.
You know, Cail, your current avatar is an almost PERFECT fit for that post, particularly that last part.
Speaking of aspies in the workplace, I will be applying for a job soon. I'm a bit nervous, as this is the first time I'll be applying for a job without the aid of an employment agency, and the horror stories I've heard on this thread about employer's preconceptions of the Autism Spectrum hasn't helped much in that regard.
On the other hand, I've gone through my life without a lot of people judging me for my Asperger's, so who knows? Usually, I can just casually mention it in conversation a bit after I've known them for a while, and they rarely treat me differently afterwards.note
edited 1st Oct '16 10:19:14 PM by MapleSamurai
What kind of job are you applying for?
Never Mind.
edited 2nd Oct '16 11:01:49 AM by dood9780
"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road—neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will." -Demifiend.Stocking shelves at the local Shopper's Drug Mart. Not really my dream job, or anything, but hey, a lot of people don't get the job they've always wanted until a longer ways down the line.
Cool! If you meant that literally, there is a cosplay thread in this forum section.
A review of a book featuring an autistic and allistic who are friends.
It's not all bad. Some aspects of autism are portrayed accurately.
The story begins by introducing a new teacher, a new curriculum, and a new basketball league for Rip and Red’s school—all good changes, but stressful for a child with autism like Red, who thrives with a routine. Each new situation brings a lot of questions, a lot of stimming, and the need for lots of reassurance.
Red loves basketball and is gifted at it, but the leagues have recently been made competitive and his mom won’t allow him to compete. This causes difficulty later in the book, because the team struggles without him. Rip cites the very legitimate concern that Red might melt down if he’s body-checked by a stranger, and Red is still allowed to play at practices, but I would be surprised if he weren’t at least a little disappointed. However, the book shows no explicit reaction on Red’s part to this decision—another reason that I feel he isn’t treated as a fully developed character.
Throughout the book, it is emphasized that Red is part of the team, both in the classroom and on the basketball court. However, the author seems to use him and his autism as more of a pawn to further the story, discarding him when not needed.
The book is apparently a mixed bag. For full review, click the link.
Ummm... Yes I meant it lit- uh never mind, Forget what I said.
I have a tendency to ramble when I am feeling really depressed.
edited 2nd Oct '16 11:02:27 AM by dood9780
"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road—neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will." -Demifiend.It's good to see characters acknowledging their stereotypes, I think. People who fit stereotypes do exist in the real world.
Now I'm reading an article about how portraying autism accurately or horribly in fiction can affect autistics for good or ill. It's another long one, and I'll excerpt it.
In kid lit, often our internal experiences are ignored in favor of showing “behaviors.” Our emotional responses (including to abuse) may be portrayed as muted, distant, or rarely shown. The false, and harmful, implication is that our internal experiences are unimportant or less intense, and therefore mistreatment matters less.
In real life, our internal experiences — especially of sensory processing issues and anxiety—are the exact opposite. They can be painfully intense and overloading. Executive functioning issues make the world harder and more stressful. Other people, including therapists, often ignore these internal experiences to focus on normalizing our surface behaviors, which neglects the reasons we have those behaviors — often they help reduce anxiety or sensory overwhelm. Some behaviors are very difficult to suppress, and suppressing them doesn’t make the reasons they happen go away. In fact, suppressing them can actively interfere with the ability to pay attention and learn.
Oh yeah... I have my own experiences with the, uh, "institute" I went to as a kid fucking not understanding or even trying to understand why I did what I did. I can tell stories about it later!
In fiction, character growth is often presented as acting less autistic or even being (unrealistically) cured at the end of the book.
Similarly, in real life, the pressure to look less autistic is strong and insistent. It includes both authority-endorsed treatments and unrelenting social pressure. Consequences include trauma, burnout or regression, reduced learning from suppressing stimming, and (if you are able to eventually look non-autistic enough) being incorrectly considered recovered and then penalized by having needed services removed. Anecdotally — I don’t know of any research on this — post-traumatic stress symptoms from abuse for being different and/or forced to hide it seem nearly universal among my autistic friends.
Way back I constantly argued that autistics can't fake "normalcy" forever, and many can't fake it well enough at all, and I had the idea pushed back in my face that we have no choice (even if it's impossible), the world won't accept us, so we must learn to do everything we can to fake it.
Well, more and more editorials are taking my side, and more and more autistic self-advocates are taking my side as well. Believe it or not, expecting autistics to fake allism 24/7 is actually less realistic than shaping society to understand us. Would you demand someone with polio just walk normally? I think not. (Society used to consider people with that disesase to be lazy, before it learned to recognize polio.)
Fiction can show good character growth for autistic characters. For example, it could show us gaining coping skills, learning to accept ourselves, and learning how being disabled affects us and what it means.
I think a book and/or movie needs to show that. Truly show the toll that constantly being on guard to fake "normalcy" takes on us.
There’s a second way we’re shown as making up for autism: having a mystical disability or special talent to entertain the reader or to serve as a plot device. This sends the message that we can’t just be people, like non-autistic characters can; we have to compensate for disability by providing value.
Rain Man is the classic, most well-known example of that.
I'm sure you can see where that's going.
In kid lit, “low-functioning” characters — often young and less verbal—are frequently objects who exist solely to affect other characters, such as by embarrassing their siblings or providing goodness points to others. If talented, it may be shown as an extreme talent or psychic ability. In real life, people labeled “low-functioning” often have talents and skills ignored or unsupported, receive excessively low expectations and an absence of respect, and are particularly likely to be portrayed as burdens.
Largely, that seems to be true. People are sometimes shocked at how "high functioning" autistics sometimes have a hard time with basic tasks despite appearing "normal", for instance.
In real life, there are many, many ways to be autistic. Kid lit overplays some autistic symptoms and interests/talents and underplays others. It does correctly represent some things as common (e.g., difficulty with eye contact and social interaction). But sensory issues, which are incredibly common in real life, are often downplayed or absent, and executive functioning impairments, difficulty with activities of daily living, and motor differences are rarely referenced (except for some stimming; other common motor issues like catatonia are absent). (This also means the difficulty we have negotiating support for these difficulties isn’t shown; a striking absence for anyone who has ever dealt with them in real life.)
When it comes to talents and special interests, there is an overfocus on stereotyped ones: math, numbers, counting, physics, and being a detective.
(...)
In real life, stereotypes contribute to difficulty getting diagnosed, being pressured into job expectations you can’t meet, or having to frequently explain that you’re not automatically gifted at math. Stereotyped portrayals can also be self-reinforcing, and can cause people to think they (or other people) can’t be autistic because they’re not like the representations they see in fiction.
This I think is one thing that really needs to be worked on.
It ends on a recommendation:
At its best, fiction shows us as full characters, real people who exist not just to affect others or educate the reader, and without being reduced to entertainment. It gives us agency. It shows our internal experiences as real and vivid and shows other characters recognizing that we have them.
It can show character growth that doesn’t require us to become more neurotypical, and could show the costs of passing and of not passing. It can include us as regular (though autistic) people, without special talents or psychic powers.
It can show us as people with uneven abilities and disabilities who don’t fall into “high-functioning” or “low-functioning” stereotypes. It shows us as worthy of respect even when we can’t speak or can’t speak much. It identifies us as autistic even when we have self-reflection and narration and agency (with obvious exceptions, such as historical settings where the diagnosis did not exist). It shows us as disabled even if we pass as neurotypical. It can show autistic adults, people of all races and ethnicities, sexual orientations, genders. It shows sensory issues, executive functioning impairments, and motor differences and difficulties.
LOADS of links in this article that link to other articles. I also only quoted parts of it, not the whole thing, as it's rather long. Definitely give it a look.
Here's an interesting comment from the comments section:
Want to diminsh what she has done. Because I guess it doesn't matter, if an auuutistiiic did it, huh? That's how many people seem to think; they seem to place society into simple categories where some are considered better than others, and autistics are somewhere on the bottom. Like, whatever an autistic person achieves, "Well, at least I'm not autistic like you!"
edited 3rd Oct '16 1:06:55 PM by BonsaiForest
Still reading this enormous trove of articles. Here's one on narrative devices in books, and how they attempt (and fail) to portray autism.
- Autistics often recite and focus on facts, so let’s add footnotes and interjections.
- Autistics may struggle with emotions, so let’s indicate those with a different font.
- Autistics obsess over their special interests, so let’s pepper the narrative with homophones or Latin names to convey this all-consuming obsession.
- Autistics can sound stiff and official, so let’s mimic this with a detached narrative voice.
(...)
The distant voice in particular feels like an outside-in approach, and not an inside-out approach: it comes across as though authors focus on the way autistics present externally and extrapolate what they must feel and think like on the inside. Except—whose insides and outsides line up that neatly? Especially for autistic people, given that a common symptom is difficulty expressing emotions in ways that are recognizable (let alone acceptable) to neurotypicals? If an autistic person comes across as stilted, even robotic, it’s often because they’ve had to consciously learn how to express their thoughts and feelings. It doesn’t mean those thoughts and feelings themselves are robotic.
First-person portrayals of autism written by people who don't have it, and are attempting to portray it, naturally seem to be by people who genuinely think of us as robotic and stiff and other, writing in first-person what they think they're seeing of us on the outside.
I'm actually writing a novel with a teen girl autistic protagonist for Na No Wri Mo this year, so I'm excited about breaking all these conventions
If anyone will break conventions, it'll be us!
My protag is making me laugh with all her quirks. She has this very strict policy about never swearing, even though other characters do all the time. And she doesn't swear once out loud for the entire story. But her inner monologue, that's another fucking, goddamn story.
Some guy: -says stupid thing-
Protagonist, internally: Fucking dumbass. Shut your goddamn mouth, for Christ's sake
Protagonist, externally: -completely blank facial expression- -monotone voice- "What you're saying is not factually correct."
I've been reading through your posts on autism in fiction, I find it fascinating how poor the quality of the average portrayal is.
I am pretty sure I will be wanting to integrate characters that lie on the spectrum into my writing, and although I think I'd do a better job just from hanging out here, I think I have like an eighty percent chance of still getting it wrong. It would be highly useful if there was a guide out there, specifically about how to portray autism in writing.
It is an unfortunate truth that most of an author's material and portrayals come from other fiction that has already been written. This is fine for things most people get right, although it can lead to interesting things like people being flung back from the impact of bullets, but for something that most people get wrong, a cheat sheet or primer becomes essential.
I suddenly realize why my dad has trouble watching shows that play Hollywood Autism straight.
edited 5th Oct '16 12:06:22 PM by WilliamRadarStorm
The possum is a potential perpetrator; he did place possum poo in the plum pot.Ouch.
What do you mean? Does he hate seeing such shows? I was pissed off at Spooksville for having its Hollywood Nerd character claim to be on the autism spectrum in one episode, when he shows no signs of autism behavior-wise, just generic nerdiness.
I feel like this is a good time to talk about The Wizard.
It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.Ah yeah. As a kid, I didn't get what was with Jimmy at all. I didn't know he was allegedly supposed to be autistic, and that drove his "Cal-i-for-nia!" speech, otherwise inability to talk, and his skill at video games. I just thought he was a strange kid, but didn't think much of it.
I am reading an article on why behaviorism sucks. At one point, it quotes Simon Baron-Cohen (yes, brother of the famous comedian Sacha), on how behaviorism for autism is not much different from behaviorism for orca whales at SeaWorld.
- We expect orcas and autistics to function in an artificial, harmful environment. SeaWorld places Orcas in a concrete bathtub in which they not only have insufficient room in an unnatural, acoustically dead environment, they are also subject to higher forces of gravity and UV radiation exposure than they would be in the wild. We know that autistic people typically have challenges with respect to auditory, sensory and motor processing and yet IBI environments replicate the sensory environment that kids encounter in schools (the whole point of IBI is to train autistic kids to be “school and table ready”). Autistic children are forced to train their bodies and senses to adapt to a hostile environment rather than taught self-regulatory techniques and how to advocate for supports and accommodations.
- Both orcas and autistic children are placed in unnatural social situations. Orcas are social animals who live their entire lives in the wild with their mothers and other family members; in captivity, not only are mothers and calves separated, but orcas are either left alone or placed within groups that are both artificial and stressful for them. In IBI, our kids are so often made to do things they aren’t comfortable with – stimming is suppressed in favour of “table ready hands,” they are separated from the people and things they enjoy, “comfort” with groups of people is enforced and they are trained in “social skills.”
- Both orcas and autistic kids are asked to perform unnatural behaviours, over and over again. In the same way that orcas in captivity are asked to perform behaviours they don’t do in the wild, autistic children in IBI are expected to continually perform behaviours that are either unnatural for them (like forced eye contact) or pointless, other than to test and ensure ongoing compliance (“touch your nose”).
- Placing orcas in captivity leads to psychological damage, self-injurious behaviour and aggression, both between orcas and towards trainers (according to this report). Autistic adults have written about how traumatizing ABA intervention was for them (in the short, medium and long term). We simply have to acknowledge that, to the extent our autistic children express “problem” behaviours, this may, in certain cases, be the result of the stress and/or trauma they are currently experiencing or have experienced in the past as part of ABA programming. Responding to their challenges by again focusing on ABA-solutions and behaviour modifications is only likely to make the problem worse.
I do remember some of that alright from my childhood. My mom sometimes got angry at my stimming at the kitchen table, or putting my hand on the table instead of keeping it down.
The jackasses at the institute I went to once demanded I eat a McDonald's cheeseburger the way it's normally meant to be eaten, instead of the way I always ate them, where I'd pick off the onions and other crap and eat only the patty and cheese. Why? Because the way I normally ate wasn't normal, and they fucking demanded I act normal. Worst cheeseburger I ever had.
And we all know how unnatural some of the "normal" behaviors we're forced to do are.
Wait, so did none of you know you can just order them plain?
edited 5th Oct '16 2:11:23 PM by PhysicalStamina
It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.I didn't know. I don't think any of us knew. My parents accepted it, but the people who are responsible for me learning how to talk and not ignore people and go off into my own little world (behaviorism isn't totally evil, and has some genuine good in it) insisted I act normal. It would, of course, always be acting.
I stopped reading the article after they referred to Autism $peaks as an "advocacy organization"
But yeah, this is my biggest fear about the future. I am a qualified candidate. I have a lot of things on my resume. (Double major/MA, national merit scholarships, published writing, academic research) and my references from professors are all glowing with the right buzzwords (Smart, inquisitive, hard working, etc) but the interview process screws me over. I can do my job as a mathematician and I can do it well. Who the hell cares if I don't fit into the "office social dynamic."
And did I miss something? Because I thought you weren't supposed to waste time socializing at work
edited 1st Oct '16 6:24:20 PM by Cailleach