China Versus Russia

Russia is "getting stronger," which, given where it is now, just puts it on Europe's level at best.

China is already at Europe's level, and rapidly surpassing it.

Maybe if they implement universal healthcare I would put them at the European level. The lack of healthcare right now is causing problems in their economy, social mobility and increasing the rich-poor divide. So if they get UHC, then I would say they're at Europe's level.

Now you want to talk long term, that China will eventually surpass Russia. I think so too. Given their resources, manpower and leadership, I feel they're going to surpass Russia by a long shot. Their immediate goals would be reclaiming Mongolia and Taiwan, thus completing the original territory before the 8 nation occupation and being at the height of Qing Dynasty. After that, they'll likely try to corner the economic market in the mideast, Africa and South America. They'll start off with friendly offers before moving more aggressively.

However, so long as the world is split between EU/US/China, they'll have to offer a real market alternative to the countries in question to maintain their hold on them. The instant they start offering bad terms for raw resources, they'll lose the deal.

On the other hand, Russia is very clearly playing oil politics. While China buys its oil and other resources from countries nobody gives a crap about, or the West originally abused, Russia is trying to pull some shady practices over its original bloc members via oil. So nobody is going to act to help out someone actively, today, screwing with them, because China in 50 years, will become more powerful. Then, if they don't deal with China, they'll have to compete with them economically on the world stage. That's not a dooms day scenario to most people.

You completely missed the point.

Not equal socially, equal militarily. UHC means jack shit if Chinese tanks are rolling over your cities while you enjoy it...

I assume you mean Chinese tanks rolling over European cities by teledropping the armoured units half way across the world? I mean, I think USA will have a tough time shipping troops into Europe but China? They only have land to travel through... through the central asian countries and then the Caucasus region and then Eastern Europe... or they go through all of Russia... or they go through Pakistan/Iran/Iraq/Turkey.

So I think Europe can feel pretty safe.

Safe now. In time, any country can invade any place. It's all about preparation.

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edited 12th Aug '13 12:43:35 AM by Breakerchase

I know. I was sad. The Soviets were better characters with the better plan that got fucked over by Clancy's Bias Steamroller. I wanted them to win only 50 pages in, and was sad when I knew by the 100th page that they were dead in the water due to the American Mary Sue bullshit.

Not on its own. What actually fucks them over is this, plus all the generals' and high officers' decisions had to run through Moscow first. Great for stopping a military rebellion, really bad for coordinating rapid front-line attacks...

edited 19th Aug '11 7:03:06 AM by USAF713

The Soviets were perfectly capable of "coordinating rapid front-line attacks" in the Cold War and did so many times in the past. Since this is not the main topic of the thread, I will say that the Soviet command structure is *not* a rigid, top-down system and the restrictions that Tom Clancy made up are basically pure fantasy, along with over 90% of what was written about the Soviets back then. Again, conscription and a lack of professional NCOs does *not* constitute a weakness, especially if the said military operates in the different manner from a Western one.

edited 19th Aug '11 9:03:00 AM by Breakerchase

Interesting. How does it work now, though?

I can't say for today's Russian Federation, but back in the 1980s - the height of Soviet military capability - one would one can hardly do better than to pick up Christopher Donnelly's book Red Banner: The Soviet Military System in Peace and War as a start. Donnelly, I must say explains things better about the Soviet system better than I can and dispels with many of the stereotypes commonly believed by guys like David C. Isby.

edited 19th Aug '11 9:43:07 AM by Breakerchase

Well it'd be helpful if you could just give a general overview. Just a few point form stuff.

I tried to lay out the points in Reds With Rockets under "Soviets Do It Differently".

That's definitely all I have to say about the Cold War now.

edited 19th Aug '11 11:55:07 AM by Breakerchase

It'd be interseting now. the Russians are getting there act back together, while the chinese have shifted their focus towards there navy.

Excluding nuclear weapons, the War would be fought almost entierly in Siberia until one side gains a MAJOR edge. The Russians would probablly be disadvantaged in numbers, but have supeirior ground-attack capabilities(chinese don't even have dedicated attack-helicopters) so that will seriously even the odds. One thing that would have a major effect is they use basically the same equimpent, some slight diviations now but Chinese tech was almost entirly Russian based or stolen until recentaly.

I think I'd put my money on Russia for two reasons. 1. General Winte-Do NOT underestimate it.

2. The Russians have a much better chance of getting help then china. Mostly in the form of The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend . Depending on the world situation, it could be any combination of Japan, Tiwan, Veitnam, Thailand And India, All of which could open more front's for china to fight, especialy if the south-eastern asian ones and Tiwan worked together well. Probablly Belarus too, but they'll only be good for some troops and planes attached to Russian forces.

edited 4th Oct '11 2:40:35 PM by Joesolo

^ The Japanese have no love for Russia. Google what the Soviets did to Sakhalin and their possessions in the Kuriles.

And India, even if it didn't remain neutral, would still have to tangle with Pakistan, who would almost certainly come in on Chinas side if it faced Indian intervention.

I said an Enemy Mine situation, and only possibly. If we assume China could fight Russia, Japan could easily fight China. I didn't mean it as a favor for Russia, just as a chance to take China down. It's the only real threat to Japan, and assuming they were acting aggrasive, they might just take the chance.

Personally, I don't think Pakistan has much of a chnce against India anymore. They'll put up a good fight for sure, and will deffintaly do damage to India's army but they just don't have the power they used to. Also, they used to have half there country on the other side of India. That half is now independant and somewhat India-freindly. So Pakistan would be in BIG trouble if China didn't commit a Serious force to helping them. And that would weaken them on the Russian front

^ The Japanese don't do aggressive war so the Chinese would have to strike first. Worse for China, the Japanese don't have to give a damn about Russia. Let them get defeated by the Chinese for all they care. Why? Because the US is treaty bound to defend Japan in the event of an attack on Japan.

There's no reason to have an Enemy Mine with Russia when you have the world's most powerful military as your best friend.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but China is keenly interested in acquiring better access to the riches of Siberia, and has been encouraging people to settle in large numbers in Manchuria for quite some time. Its entirely possible that at some point China either tries to wrestle the land from Russia or, more likely, purchases it. Makes sense too since Russia has never had much luck in extracting resources from the region and the native population are closer to East Asian than European in culture, though Russians might worry about losing Vladivostok.

Tom: Well, if Russia gets into a war with China, the US is probably going in on Russia's side (according to you), right? Considering that Japan is something of an ally to the US, and has a bad past with China, the Chinese might start something.

There is such a thing as a three-sided war.

There is but it's not often. It's much more likely to join in on Russia's side, as China is far less democratic, and isn't very freindly.

Also, I meant if China got aggrasive, not Japan.

Right now, Japan has pretty much no military power whatsoever. If China were to attack them and the US didn't intervene (perhaps because they didn't want to work with Russia in the hypothetical China vs Russia example), it'd be a Curb-Stomp Battle.

edited 4th Oct '11 5:09:51 PM by Archereon

They have to get ashore first.

Japan could still wreck China's "navy" and fuck up their air power, IMO.

Nuclear Launch Detected.