Obedience to god and the concept of right and wrong

I've been attending a protestant church with a religious friend of mine recently and found the experience (contrary to the members of the group) to be rather underwhelming. However nice and friendly the church goers were there (the pastor himself has three adopted children and goes around the world lending aid to the impoverished, which I respect with all my heart), alot of their doctrine I have a hard time agreeing with, specifically the constant obedience to god.

• I know this is a stupid thing to talk about as obedience towards a higher, supernatural authority is constant for all religions who rely on the worship towards a central deity or group of deities, but the idea of unquestioning complete and total submission seems a disturbing concept to me - the kind of reasoning totalitarian governments or cults of personality use to remove disobedience and keep members from deviating from their established laws. Most of this I received through the church's rock songs (which are all glurge to me by the way) that emphasize complete opening to god above all else.
• In addition the friend I mentioned earlier will always try to make me feel wrong about my beliefs (though I'm the one to talk, since I feel I'm also trying to force my views on her, although this may be because I feel it recompense for her doing the same to me). She keeps telling me that things like potty humor (which I am quite fond of by the way, despite the witless humor), evolution, positive ideas of homosexuality, gender change, and acceptance of other religious views is "wrong" and that I should not be seduced by such things. This one time I got really riled up when I mentioned to her the story of a man who forced a sex change operation on himself after suffering years of sexual identity issues and she reduced all this as him succumbing to temptation and that he shouldn't change himself because he should be happy with what he is born with (despite him suffering for years trying to conform to a male identity). I also couldn't believe how condescending she was towards the Catholic faith, attributing problems to their lack of doing right and even refusing to accept it as part of Christianity.
• Finally my recent visit to the church had me receiving a pamphlet talking about Islam and the church's desire to pray for change for them to accept the Christian god. Honestly I have ALOT of beef with Islam (specifically the more conservative types), but I don't think it's right to make Muslims think their religions has no spiritual worth or value.
• Overall, I'm not comfortable with the "unquestioning obedience to god" thing as is the concept of right or wrong according to religious doctrine. What I fear most, however, is the possibility that something in my life will influence me to join certain extreme groups at the detriment of myself and others. I'm aware that I have lived a fairly pampered lifestyle, with my parents paying for my expenses and college conditions despite going through a divorce and my father not having a job. My family on my father's side is susceptible to senility, I have weight issues which I must attend to avoid any potential physical ailments in the future, I may lose loved ones in accidents, and I will have to find a job and even have to marry and have children (which I consider a nightmarish concept) to support myself. Unlike most people, I have a very uncertain view of the future and may try to find an outlet to ease my anxiety, yet I don't want myself to succumb to something that may do more harm to me than good (in this case, religious groups, which my twin sister and I perceive as using the insecurities and worries of potential members to boost their ranks).

Well, the thing is, God is supposed to be the ultimate 'good' in the universe. He would only ever ask you to do good things.

But of course, nobody has a direct line to God and those who tell you that they do are probably quite suspect. We can only guess what God wants us to do, based on the scriptures and our own consciences. So it's not like God is going to come to you in a dream and say "JOHNY, I ORDER YOU TO GO DO X Y Z!". You just have to do what you think is right.

Be not afraid...

"He would only ever ask you to do good things."

"Good" for who?

Enjoy the Inferno...

For humanity of course.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

So, are you saying God doesn't care about puppy dogs, only humans?

I was referring to what God orders humans to do, which ultimately bring betterment to humanity.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

This is incorrect. Not all religions hold that the gods give commandments, and some hold that the gods might give commandments that should not be obeyed, because the gods are not perfectly moral.

edited 10th Aug '11 6:12:45 AM by Karalora

Mm... bleh, the problem with religion—well, here, Christianity, but this applies to all the three (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) Abrahamic religions—is that they use their god as a point of reference for moral absolutism. Which is fine, until they start trying to include people who don't buy into it. People usually don't care until they attempt to make their worldview "right" and everybody else "wrong." The problem is that that is usually a stated goal of the religion, and... well... it doesn't go over well...

edited 10th Aug '11 6:24:05 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

First of all, re: the songs, it sounds like most mainstream "Christian" music in that they're trying WAY too hard on the concept of mere belief. They're almost entirely focused on getting their foot in the door, so to speak. Thou protest too much, fake it until you make it, all that jazz. It's music for atheists who simply don't want to face up to the fact that they don't believe in the religion that they want to claim that they do.

Which is probably why you find the whole thing underwhelming. My personal opinion on why you see the extremism like you're seeing at that church, is that people simply aren't feeling it. But they feel if they can somehow bring more "glory" to the church/to God/then they'll start feeling it. They assume everybody else around them is feeling it, and they're just not good enough. It's a feedback loop.

On the topic of the title (which is a bit different than the OP), religious morality, in my opinion is by and large arbitrary. It often doesn't give clear reasons why something is right or wrong other than via vague concepts of glory. The question is if this is a problem or not, even for religious groups that do have a more moral sense to them. I personally think it IS a problem. Why something is right or wrong is important, because it allows us to better handle the grey area/corner cases that are the reality most of the time.

In short, while religious morality can be right and while rationalist morality can be wrong, generally speaking if done right, rationalist morality is going to do a better job of conveying the lessons of basic right and wrong.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

@Blurring: But does god think like human? Even we humans ourselves have problems with thinking something is good for others but the target disagrees...fictional example: End Of Eternity...

Give me cute or give me...something?

If I knew for certain that the Abrahamic God existed - not just any god, but God specifically as described in those religions, i.e., omniscient-omnipotent - then I think I would consider unquestioning obedience to be a good idea, on the basis that a) He's omniscient, so He presumably knows a lot better than I do what I should be doing, and b) He's omnipotent, so whether or not A applies I don't think I would enjoy the consequences of not doing as He says.

Fortunately, I don't believe in God, so I can do whatever I feel like.

edited 10th Aug '11 7:24:03 AM by cityofmist

Scepticism and doubt lead to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning of wisdom. - Clarence Darrow

@onyhow

As God created humans, God have the most intimate knowledge of humans. So God knows what is the best for humans, even if what is best for humans is not liked by humans.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

Surely the question of obedience is only relevant after you've decided what to obey?

• if you believe in a God who is benevolent, omniscient, and interventionist, then using obedience as ground for morality is logical.
• if you can't give a 100% "yes" to all three of the above conditions, what are you obeying, and why does it make any kind of sense to do so?

To be honest it seems like an issue that gets set one way or the other by the other elements of your theology.

edited 10th Aug '11 8:37:20 AM by Jinren

...is subjective.

I am now known as Flyboy.

All I can say is God is better than Zeus.I mean if the Greek gods were real then you would give up your will to live.

At least God doesn't come down to fool around with the women and rape them against their will.

edited 10th Aug '11 8:47:09 AM by jazzflower14

Although your god will kill you just because you looked at god—and not even on purpose—and if many Christians are to be taken seriously, also kill homosexuals randomly and, as far as can be determined or proven, for no good reason other than because they are such...

I am now known as Flyboy.

@12, Do I really need to point out the faulty logic in "As God created humans, God have the most intimate knowledge of humans?" If that were true, software bugs wouldn't exist.

Da Rules excuse all the inaccuracy in the world. Listen to them, not me.

Maby I'll have to go check from a Bible, but didn't God destroy entire cities? Of course Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil but still... At least if the Greek gods existed you might be able to get help from the others/play them against each other. Failing that at least they wouldn't be omnipotent, meaning you could fight them.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

USAF@The thing is that God actually warns people when they are in his presence to look away.Also they would be a greater body count if God used his judgement more often.God is more subtle than people think.

Also having mutliple Gods is a lot more horrible than you think.He also only destroys cities when they become just so dang evil.I mean if Sodom was still around you would probably want to get away from it.

edited 10th Aug '11 9:02:03 AM by jazzflower14

^What about God flood the whole world?

There's also the fact that if God decide things for us, then we have no free will...then again, with someone being omniscient, free will technically won't exist so...

edited 10th Aug '11 9:17:54 AM by onyhow

Give me cute or give me...something?

@17

That implies God shares traits with His creation, which is wrong.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?

OP: This is why I've never been a religious man, I don't trust the scripture to tell me what is right and wrong, so do the best I can with my own moral compass so that the only excuse I have if I do something is that I thought it was right. I can't go off and say "But God wants me to do X!"

Fundamentalists (which is what this topic is about) tick off other worshipers just as much as everyone else.

Speaking for Christianity, it's more common to interpret the Bible loosely (since it was written by human beings). Building on that, it's perfectly viable to look at mankind's gift of free will as more of a call to decide for ourselves what is right as opposed to waiting for step by step doctrines from some higher power. After all, it's not like even Jesus Christ cared to follow exactly the laws of Moses and the Old Testament...

edited 10th Aug '11 9:20:11 AM by Vellup

They never travel alone.

^^^ And didn't God create man in his image? Also, the software analogy use example tha remove any similarities between crator and the created already...

edited 10th Aug '11 9:21:44 AM by onyhow

Give me cute or give me...something?

But it still implies that God is prone to mistakes like humans.

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?